About 400 municipal workers are now earning minimum wage because Scranton, Pa., faces $16 million in red ink. Scranton is just one of several struggling cities around the country grappling with budget deficits and searching for ways to bring in more money. NBC's Ron Allen reports.
Updated at 5:55 p.m. ET: Unions representing civil servants in Scranton, Pa., filed suit Tuesday after the mayor cut pay for police, firefighters, garbage collectors and other public workers to minimum wage, saying that was all the city could afford.
Unions representing police, fire and public workers in the city of 76,000 filed three lawsuits after the city defied a judge's order and issued paychecks Friday that paid 398 city employees at the minimum wage of $7.25 an hour, according to the Scranton Times-Tribune.
The lawsuits against Mayor Chris Doherty include one filed in federal court under the Fair Labor Standards Act accusing the city of failing to pay wages on time and failing to pay overtime. Another lawsuit seeks to hold the mayor in contempt for violating a judges order. Yet another alleges that benefits for disabled police and firefighters were cut without a hearing.
The Times-Tribune, quoting City Business Manager Ryan McGowan, reported that as of Monday the city had $133,000 in cash, but owed $3.4 million in vendor bills. One of those bills was health insurance, McGowan said.
Related: Are you making $30,000 a year or less? We want to hear from you.
Scranton is among a number of cities struggling to pay their bills amid rising labor costs. Earlier this month, Stockton, Calif., became the largest city in U.S. history to file for bankruptcy protection from creditors.
Scranton's mayor and the city council have been locked in a dispute over how to raise money in a city that has steadily lost population over the past 50 years and has been hit hard by the real estate slump and the Great Recession that followed. Doherty has argued that the city needs to increase taxes, but council members want to find other ways to raise money. Doherty is a Democrat. The city council is comprised of Democrats.
The Scranton newspaper said the city has been designated as financially distressed for 20 years.
Related: US towns face perfect storm as budgets are squeezed
Leave a Comment:
We don't care if you're out of money. Pay us, we're entitled!
Would you be willing to risk your life and limb for less than $300/week?
Wow you are an idiot. If the mayor were to take minimum wage, they could probably pay the majority of these men and women who risk their lives a decent pay. But no, those that help us when we are in need shouldn't get paid decently, just those that sit on their asses and bitch about stuff and do absolutely nothing but tax us and take our money should...
People are entitled to be paid for their work. Why do you think you are entitled to receive the services of others for free?
Letusreason, are you entitled to receive payment for the work that you provide? Like the police officers in Scranton? Just curious if you are one of the "entitled" people that you scorn.
I agree. But HOW do you pay them if the city has $133,000 and owes $3.4 million? The bottom line is, they CAN'T pay them even if they wanted to.
How would you give your kids a $20 a week allowance if you don't have $20? They may be great kids and they may well deserve it, but if the money isn't there, it isn't there.
Sadly, this is the scene that will be played out all over America if we don't get Americans back to work and get the tax dollars flowing in once again. Right now our country is in a death spiral. People lose their jobs and start drawing unemployment and government benefits. So instead of paying into the system, they are drawing out of the system. As more and more people become "receivers", there are fewer and fewer "contributors". We need to reverse this cycle, and the only way to do it is to get the private sector booming again and get businesses hiring. We need to cut regulations. Heck, if we cut all taxes on businesses they would hire a lot more workers (who would all pay taxes). All Obama can see is that these people who receive "free money" all vote democrat, so he has very little incentive for the economy to improve.
Let's see....flip burgers, or get shot at for the same money? Hold on, let me think.
It is the mistake of the people to think they are entitled to city services. It is NOT the job of a police officer to protect you. If "We the People" would do what needed to be done there would not be a big need for public jobs. It is past time for Americans to get off their back sides and start tending to their own needs. The city employees should only be there to assist, it is up to the rest of us to actually do the work. All city jobs should be part-time minimum wages with the exception of those that manage like police chief or city manager. If all of us "policed" our areas we would not need full time police officers that cannot even get there in time.
The city owes over 3.4 million and has only $133k in cash on hand. It looks as if they are almost out of money. Bankruptcy to follow. Obviously they can't print money, so the workers need to find another source of income. This is what will happen to the federal government if they don't cut spending.
Bruce - what about all the so-called "job-creators" out there? Why are they just sitting there when taxes are at an all-time low for them?
nonsense. If we cut all taxes on businesses, revenue would plummet even further and they STILL WOULDN'T hire cause there would still be no demand for their product/services. Businesses don't hire people cause their tax rates are low, they hire people when doing so would increase their profit margins, regardless of what the current tax rate is...
If you are not happy with your pay go get another job. If more people worked in the private sector and contributed tax dollars to the city they can hire more people and pay better wages to keep a city alive. Get off your butts and build a good city if that is what you want. Everything should start with the private sector and then filter to the public sector. Not the other way around.
I agree with these folks, that is a ridiculous sentiment in this particular circumstance. We aren't talking about unemployment, welfare, or socialized medicine. We are talking about people getting paid for their jobs. If your boss were to pull you in to their office and tell you that while you had been making $30 an hour before, you are now going to earn only $7.25 and hour because they were low on money, would you be okay with that? Of course not. You probably have a family, a home, and financial responsibilities that are covered by the salary you fairly agreed to work for. Police officers and firefighters risk their lives every day, and there isn't anyone in their right mind who would do that work for $7.25 an hour. It is insulting to ask them to, and it should be criminal to tell them that they have to. It would be better if they just told everyone in Scranton that they were just cutting those services. From now on, guard your own life. From now on, keep a hose on hand. From now on, take your own garbage to the dump. If they did that, the people of Scranton would scramble to find a solution. Perhaps they need to increase property taxes, or perhaps they need to cut social services that are not necessary for the operation of a city. But they should not cut the pay to an unlivable wage of the people they expect to protect and defend their lives.
They must not be the self-proclaimed "VIP's" from Mittens Zillionaire fundraiser in the Hamptons.
Mitt, your Party "kills jobs" and attacks women, the poor, the old, students, the educated, and Modernism in general.
Sounds like the American Taliban.
The Scranton Mayor (Chris Doherty) cut all city employee's pay (including his own) in response to a financial crisis brought on by the city spending more than it raised in taxes. The same Mayor tried to raise taxes in his last budget proposal, but that was shot down by the opposition. So if you spend more than you have to spend, there are consequences. By the way. The Scranton mayor is a Democrat that tried to raise taxes - a rare person these days.
Pennsylvania's 6th largest city is now broke.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/09/political-statemate-leads-to-city-workers-salaries-cut-down-to-minimum-wage-in/#ixzz20E3KpioM
While I can't see how Scranton can justify minimum wage for first responders, I think it's clear that there are many cities in the same situation (bankruptcy) that will be facing the same problem very soon. How do you pay someone with nothing- by more taxes, staffing cuts, and renegotiating their wages/benefits. That's all very painful- think about it: If you cut someone's salary in half how do they afford their current commitments (mortgage, cars, costs of living, kid's education, etc.)? If you raise taxes on everyone, that'll draw more money out of their funds for daily living too. Like it or not, you need a combination of all of these to survive and that's going to piss off everyone. It's sour medicine, but it's the only life saving medicine you've got.
Starderup has a point- if presented with a comperable package (salary and benefits) for being an officer or a fry cook, I'd seriously consider getting out of law enforcement eventhough it might be my favorite thing to do and my goal in life.
Simply put the unions have to realize that the cities are going belly up and there will be pain for everyone, so they need to come to the table with ideas for success. The cities need to choke on their failures as well and possibly consider some rough options too (selling property, cutting services, raising taxes, privitizing garbage collection, etc. and making them competitive contract based). If you want that hamburger Wimpy, you are going to pay for it.
Just a general statement, we elect officials to lead. A part of leading is fiscal responsibility. If they can not lead they should be personally responsible/liable for fiscal over-runs. They have the facts and figures at hand to make informed decisions. If there is insufficient funding for a project then don't start the project. People will find ways around most real issues and the rest is nothing more than unneeded fluff.
To penalize people to reducing their income level to minimum wage is counterproductive on so many levels it is not funny. I can see the headlines now, Mayors house burns to the ground because fire fighters had worked 40 hours at minimum wage and no overtime. Police lost evidence in murder case because they were off over the week end. Intersection lights out, city did not pay the bill. Garbage has piled up making streets impassable due to lack of workers. Smart, real Smart.
letusreason, please explain yourself. surely the american right wing has not gone so far as to take the position that the rich (or any employers) are kings and emperors, and if there is some tightness in the royal treasure, the peons should simply provide their labor for free. i.e., that it is only employers who are "entitled". i am confident that you meant something by this seemingly ridiculous remark. i employ over 400 people and cannot imagine one of them wanting to perform their services for me or any of my companies without being compensated at a rate for which we bargained. so, what's your deal? i suppose you also think dubya was a great president and that at the end of his and cheney's reign, all was right with the world.. right?
goodforgoodnesssake
Because if you hire an employee, you have them for many years. A typical business plan looks at a 5 to 10 year period. Obama is promising to raise taxes across the board for job creators if elected again.
So you tell me, what number do I use for tax rates over the next 5 - 10 years? If I don't know, I'll use the worst case scenario which means I have to cut costs in order to demonstrate to the bank that my business will stay afloat.
They should just cut all of those services, let the city burn.
I understand why the employees are angry. They may not be able to pay their bills then either. At least they can then sympathize with the mayor's plight.
Again, which part of "if you don't have it you can't spend it" is not clear to the whole world, apparently?
I admit though, if I was a city employee that normally made more, I would be looking for another job. However, considering the job situation, especially in that part of the country, I'd keep the minimum wage one until I found the new one.
You are sorely misinformed - the 'job creators' are the middle class consumers - without which there would be no demand for a product. You need to empower the middle class with an income that makes purchasing of 'extra' items an option.
No business person, who wishes to succeed, is going to create a business and 'hope' that someone will purchase their product - no business is going to hire a single employee until the demand for their product requires it. Stop drinking the kool-aid that the more money we give the richest tier of American society - the more jobs they will create - they have more money now than they ever did - so, where are the jobs?
LaValla - What a stupid post. It's not the police departments job to protect people? Right. That's probably why so many departments have "To serve and protect" written on their cars. It's one thing to be conservative. It's another to live in la la land.
I don't understand why the unions sue the government officials.
This is the problem with allowing public unions negotiate contracts with government. Instead, the contracts should be made with voters, who are paying the bills.
In reality, these lawsuits are really suing the local, state and federal taxpayers.
Blood sucking unions bled this town dry and must find another 'host' but there is none.
This is coming soon to a city near you, minimum wage for all city workers, that are facing bankruptcy or in the red. I hope the gdamn Mayor and all those at the top took a drastic pay cut also. Everyone from the top down, should work for minimum wage until the budget is fixed. My State had to let the teachers go, but, the Department of transportations top 3 employees get a salary of $295,000 hell they were gonna get a pay hike of $88,000 until the public found out about it. Now that is on hold. lmao.
First off - not their issue. Previous administrations didnt do their jobs.
Secondly - I bet you would change your tune if your house was burning down and they couldnt get ahold of the minimum wage firefighters (who are at the bar) to come put the fire out.
The trend of "Fiddling while Rome burns" on the part of the people who are supped to be running things as elected officials and then "blaming the workers" has to end. Everyone has a social contract with their jobs. Firemen is to fight fires, Policemen is to "protect and serve", teachers to teach our children and Mayors, governors, etc. to "run the business" of the place they are elected to run (City, State, Country, etc.). The blame falls on the part of the gutless leaders who sign contracts they cannot afford to keep and then wait until things are so bad financially that they simply stop paying. When this happens in the private sector these people lose their jobs and sometimes go to jail but in the public sector? They are hailed as "tough minded heroes? You have got to be kidding me...
exactly, cause every firefighter, police officer, and teacher I know is just filthy filthy rich, rolling in the taxpayers dough. They're surely to blame for this particular town's financial woes...
maga
Your rant perfectly describes a startup company, just like the ones I have started. How do you think a new company starts? A lot of sweat equity by the founders (working for several years with no income), taking out loans from a bank to hire your first employees, purchase equipment, purchase raw materials, build product and test it. This often takes several years before the first product is ever sold.
My current company started exactly like this - with about 20 employees. 10 years later, we have about 100 employees and are selling products to our customers (other businesses). I am still paying off loans which are backed by assets including my house.
I would hire more employees today if it weren't for the unknowns the businesses are facing, including taxes, healthcare and regulations. Instead of hiring, my employees work overtime and when we do need additional help, we use temporary labor.
The idiot money managers are the one's who are responsible for this mess and many more across the country. Local, state, an the federal government are out of control withe their spending. Unfortunately their money tree is us. If they run out, they just pick some more. Well Mr. Mayor, you need to crap up some money somewhere. The police officers and firefighters have responsibilities, well so do you. Get off your ass and quit using the excuse that things are tough all over to cover your own incompetence.
What we are seeing is just the tip of a financial Iceberg that the human race is headed for. Leaders with no answers who are 'faint out of fear' in expectation of what is to come. And the so-called Powerful Unions which resemble 'toothless pit-bulls'.... Are we ready for what's next?
zerp
armurray, how in the world would you negotiate a contract with the people? That's why you elect government officials -- so they negotiate on your behalf. Unfortunately government officials aren't elected based on qualifications, ability or leadership; they're elected based on popularity and hollow promises.
Bigpicture-2908633, you're ignorant. This is exactly what happens to cities when unions are in control demanding ridiculous wages, free health insurance and pensions that employees can get when they put in 20 years of service. It's not the fault of wealthy people that liberals who were courting the union votes signed these absurd union agreements, it's the fault of politicians and now the rest of society is going to pay for it.
I personally have no problem paying cops and firefighters a decent salary, but they should share in the pain by paying for their medical insurance and putting into their pensions.
WE ARE ALL TIRED of the big fat lazy union workers getting paid way too much. Bunch of fat crybabies.
Realist-1226632,
It's called an election. That is how some states and municipalities work - those that don't allow public unions.
In those areas, if a fire departments wants a more expensive pension, it is put up to a vote of the people and taxes are raised to cover it.
Nobody is asking how much the CEOs of the Vendor companies are making. How about hell-th insurance? William McGuire United Health, 128 Million in one year, CEO, Stephen Hemsley, $102. How many people's benefits and procedures were denied and they died so these corporate Nazis could get their American Holocaust booty? What about DBH the faulty flack jacket manufacturer's CEO with 250 Million in one year? Worse than that what about the true banker bail out figure of 16.1 TRILLION $. Do you hear Obomination or Mr. Magic underwear say anything about this robbery and enslavement of American workers? Money in a Republic is supposed to relate to the exchange of goods and services not as a tool of madern slavery; the US constitution has articles that enforce that if our entire government was not full of criminals. We need national social ownership of our monetary system now. Anybody that says otherwise is involved at one level or another in a criminal conspiracy. Wake up America! Demolicans and Republicrats are divisions of the same criminal party, VOTE INDEPENTENT in 2012 or die.
Good God, you people are pissed at the wrong people. When will you ever learn? Might I point you in the direction of the price fixing of the LIBOR rates, banks colluded to engage at an illegal activity and got caught price fixing the rates at which they charge, CITY, COUNTY and STATE rates of interest. Now I highlighted those so they would sink into most of your shallow minds.
Let me repeat, BANKS are PRICEFIXING the RATES at which they LOAN MONEY to OUR CITY, COUNTY and STATES. Now, are you able to put 2 and 2 together to make 4? Now while that might be over in EUROPE, if you've read anything about it, some of our BIG NAME AMERICAN BANKS have been caught doing it over there, why would they not do the same OVER HERE?
We are spinning out of control in debt, and who do you blame? Poor People? I'll take the people Jesus physically assaulted, the BANKERS. That is right, Peace loving Jesus attacked the BANKERS, read that dusty book and learn something from it.
Now back to your lovable kitten videos so you can be distracted and not understand "Big Boy" ideas and how the real world, really works.
thank you, demar. i will now consider myself educated by you. i wish you great success in business.
lavalla - when you're house is burning down and your relatives trapped inside, please don't call 911. It's not the firefighters jobs. You need to take care of your own business and put out the fire and rescue your family. Maybe they will show up later, to "assist" and put out a couple hot spots. Moron.
And while I agree police and fire deserve to be well paid I disagree with the person saying no one in their right mind would do a job like that for minimum wage. How do you explain all the volunteer fire companies across the company where the people do this for FREE in their own personal time.
ARMURRAY "I would hire more employees today if it weren't for the unknowns the businesses are facing, including taxes, healthcare and regulation"
I call Bullsh**. If you have the demand ALL else is secondary. YOU as a "supposed" business owner should know this. I don't know of ANY business owner that would sacrifice a dollar today on the FEAR of tomorrow. And yes..I've had my assets used as collateral in my businesses too. (exactly why I make a dollar today and worry about tomorrow...tomorrow. NEVER have I made a decision based on what taxes I or my company would have to pay...its ALL driven by demand.
As a business owner you should be ALL for any type of efforts that puts the most $$ in the most hands of people that buy your product. That's called a WIN-WIN situation....Henry Ford understood it...
Wow, some of the comments here are over the top.
1. They should be glad the Mayor was trying to give them some wage. I don't think the Mayor likes it any more than the rest of them. At least he didn't say, sorry, no pay.
2. The Union lawyer who got a Judge to force the Mayor to pay full wages, and then try to hold him in contempt when he can't should have his license revoked. No one, not even a Judge can get blood from a turnip. If the Unions think they can through legal means, they are sadly mistaken.
3. It appears the Mayor has tried to remedy the situation only to be shot down by the Taxpayers. Could it be the Taxpayers are tired of paying for their health care and pension and paying for the City workers rich plans as well? Sounds to me like the Taxpayers are the ones saying NO, not the Mayor.
This problem should have been fixed long before it became $133,000 in cash and $3.4 million in vendor bills. But this is also a lesson our govt. needs to learn real quick. They are doing the same thing only to the tune of TRILLIONS. It's not working for the people of Scranton, nor is it working for the people of America.
Wake up, we can't continue to "kick the can down the road!!!"
Yes they are entitled!
The trained for their positions and put their life on the line everyday! That entitles them to pay.
Demar, you are clueless really really clueless, can you tell me where any of these people are getting free insurance and pensions, dumbass we pay in for these benefits just like you do SSI, and your insurance.
Go ahead, bite the bullet Scranton, man up and RAISE TAXES.
If you spend more than you take in, find ways to take in MORE. Screwing your public servants is a pathetically conservative tactic.
The police and firemen should give back minimum services. Trust me on this all you righties this, mayor is toast! He will be run out of office. If they cant find the money for police and firemen the citizens will make the mayor and the city council work for minimum wage
tmc24,
My demand is up today. As I said in my earlier post, when I need more labor today, I increase overtime and/or hire temporary labor. This is exactly my current situation and I have about 20 temporary employees to cover our orders. If the business situation were more stable and predictable, I would hire those employees directly.
You obviously aren't a business owner with a bank loan. Banks are only interested in tomorrow... They won't loan you money unless you can repay them. To do this, they require 5 and 10 year plans that demonstrate how you expect to succeed in the long term.
Look back about 11yrs ago when the tax's got cut, they where paid for by taking money away from states. Then states away from local government and not cutting services(bad management). Priviatizing sounds great except now you have to make a profit and the price you pay for the service goes up. You have to look passed what sounds good and look at what the actual results will be. CUTTING TAXES is not always the answer.Public employee's pay taxes which means they pay part of there own wages.
Armurray, You know your business payees 0 taxes, the consumer of your services pay the taxes. In the end it is the individuals that pay. If your taxes on a service is $10you don't set your billing price at $10 you figure your tax, wages, profit, and all other expenses in. Your right about uncertainty tho. Taxes across the board need to be raised and government needs to be trimmed. You can't get out of debit by lowering your income.
Cops and fire fighters DO NOT, I say again, DO NOT risk their lives everyday. It's a fact, I believe the idea that they do is simply propaganda to justify the world class military style weapons they keep in the trunks of the cruisers and the s.w.at. teams our tax dollars are supporting.. Even while serving in the military during the 80's I did not risk my life every day. Our boys in uniform, fighting this worthless war in the middle east,,NOW THEM GUYS ARE RISKING THEIR LIVES!! EVERY DAY!!
We need officers on the street and fire fighters at the ready and those men and women need and should make better than min. wage. It should be criminal to ask them to work for so little monies.
Don't rent a cops and mall police make more than minimum wage? Sad... let's cut the salaries of people who put their lives on the line everyday to maintain security and prevent fire loss.
After reading some of these post, I came to the conclusion that the right doesn't want or need public workers help, so to either a fire fighter or policemen(mostly democrats)next time you get a call you should find out if the republican or democrat, if they are democrat by all means go and help them, but if they are republican, tell them to call the private sector to help them. I wonder who they would call if their house was burning or being robbed, must be a lot private sector jobs out their with such skills! Good luck republicans your going to need it!
So a Republican Governer tries to restrict collective bargaining to State employees and everyone is up in arms. If a Democrat mayor tries to cut City employees pay to minimum wage it's what's necessary?
Bruce, you can cut taxes and cut regulations all you want, but businesses aren't going to hire UNLESS THERE IS DEMAND FOR WHAT THEY HAVE TO OFFER. And there isn't going to be demand if the people (i.e., the consumers) don't have money to spend. If you cut average person's pay -- you know, the folks that actually drive the economy -- you're taking away their ability to spend and, hence, reducing demand and eliminating the reason businesses hire. These tax cuts have been in place since 2003 and look where we are.
think about it-3820192,
Sort of right. My business currently pays 38% federal and 10% state taxes on profits since our profits are under $500,000/year. The prices we charge our customers are independent of our costs - in our case they are set by federal government reimbursement codes since they are medical devices. It will be interesting when the new 2.3% excise tax is implemented as part of Obamacare next January to see if the reimbursement rates are increased accordingly...
Wow, that collapse happened quickly (#1.46). Did I hit a nerve, conservatives?
Well, Rick, we all know it's ostensibly their job to serve and protect. But in reality the only people they serve is themselves and their employers. Cops are megalomaniacs who go about pushing people around, showing how tough they are with a gun and a badge. And they spend most of their time raising revenue for their employers by committing highway robbery. They call it writing speeding tickets. But really, no harm, no foul. Men with guns, laying in wait, stopping innocent travelers who are minding their own business and doing nobody any harm. In the wild west, that was called highway robbery. Now the cops do it on behalf of their employers and they call it protecting public safety. NONSENSE! It is just highway robbery, committed by/on behalf of the government. I'm surprised the mayor didn't try to solve his fiscal mess by ordering them to write more tickets (maybe he has?).
Here in Pennsylvania, that's definitely true. Every time police and teacher salaries are published in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, I am shocked at how much they make, many of them six figures, even over $200,000. They go on strike and demand more, and the democrats who run the cities, counties, and school districts just give the unions what they want. What do they care? It's not their money. If they want more, they just go back to the tax well and raise taxes. In one of the few editorials I read in the Post-Gazette that actually made sense, they pointed out how teachers used to go on strike saying they could make more in private industry and needed incentive to stay in the public sector, but now they just point out how much teachers are making in higher paid school districts. They already make more than in the private sector, and they just want to make as much as, or more than, the highest paid teachers in the county. This has gotten way out of hand, at least here in Pennsylvania, if not everywhere.
Put up to a public vote? Wouldn't that be great. Not here in Pennsylvania. Government does what it wants, and the people have no say. You elect somebody else, they are also beholden to the unions. The public never gets a say here, we just get to pay.
Bankers are to blame? How do you figure that? Government should NEVER be borrowing money! Every budget should be balanced. Don't spend more than you have. And taxes should never have to be raised. If that is necessary, it is usually because the community sucks, businesses are leaving, and the tax base is declining. It usually has something to do with Democrats' support for unions. It's funny how all of the prosperous communities around here are run by Republicans, and all the poor and declining ones are run by Democrats. But the stupid voters in these poor communities can't put two and two together and figure that, if they also want to be a prosperous community, maybe they should vote Republican just like those in the prosperous communities do.
What part of everyones a democrat did you not read. This is what happens when Liberals run out of money and cant make the people pay more. Weebols wobble .....but they dont fall down! Much!
I always find it amusing Ed...when someone like you makes a blanket statement "ALL cops are bad and do nothing to help people"...really Ed? You know it's very difficult for anyone to take someone's post seriously when they let their obvious hatred and anger toward a certain group of people color their whole post. You made whatever you had to say completely worthless and ignorant by stating what you did in the very beginning. You obviously are someone who loves to drive fast and race through red lights and boo hoo you've been stopped and given a ticket for it. I'm sure there are quite a few people reading these posts who have had a policeman help them or save their lives. I know that I called them on an occasion when my neighbor's home was being burglarized (and my home was next) and they came and I'm very, very glad that they did. They caught two little punks who thought breaking into people's homes would be better than going to school. You're obviously a punk....cause only punks think that ALL cops are bad and do nothing to make our world better and safer. Sad, pathetic little boy (I could never call you a man) who keeps getting tickets and thinks no laws should apply to him.
Minimum wage without benefits coming to YOUR town soon, courtesy of the GOP. The 'We're Broke' mantra from these city officials, and the GOP, flies in the face of record profits, compensation, and retirement bennies for big business and their CEOs. Keep believing it's an 'entitlement' issue when it's really a revenue issue, and the 99% will go down with the ship.
Fact - taxes, for everyone, are at a 60-year low in America. Fact - the average tax rate paid by Americans is a little over 12%. Fact - those at the top of the income scale may pay a larger tax bill, but it pales in comparison to the percent of one's wages paid in taxes by the 99%ers. America may have high tax rates, but nobody pays that rate or we wouldn't be in the mess we're in. Can you say subsidies and credits?
Google it, be informed, then do something about it. And if that doesn't work, research Mitt's tax returns -holdings, investments, and credits. Here's a clue for you - Mitt is worth billions, yet only pays a tax rate of less than 15%. Why do you think he's hiding his tax returns? Only the rich get those kind of breaks.
Yet, YOU'RE the problem. And you still will be if you vote for Romney.
armurray is full of it! The highest US federal corporate tax rate is 35%, not the 38% that armurray claims to be paying.
armurray, the next time you fib on a message board, have the sense to do a little research first. Then someone might actually believe you know what you are talking about.
EVERYONE QUIT HASSLING THE JOB CREATORS, IF WE DON'T POLISH THEIR SHOES OR KEEP CUTTING THEIR TAXES THEY MIGHT LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND TAKE THE LOADS OF JOBS THEY'VE BEEN APPARENTLY MAKING WITH THEM.
Republicans man, they'd love old Europe. Feudalism is like their dream economy. It completely cheats the poor in every way possible.
Really? I mean Really?
If you see things this way you are truly rationally challenged. What is actually happening is in Republican communities they vote in their cronies and run everyone that does not think the way they do out of town.
I have never been in an area that is predominately Republican where there was not a massive underclass working for pennies doing yard work or changing diapers that their Republican Owners make come in through the back door and live in a ghetto out of sight of their beautiful home.
There is an entire group of Republicans(not all. I firmly believe there are still conservatives that want what's best for the country)that are the new Masters in a Slave society. They are striving for a vast underclass to do their serving.
Yup. The South will rise again. And a lot of you people on this group are going to be in the slave class working for pennies. Just remember you chose your overlords over your own self interest because they said the word God.
vote republican! lol, feudalism, here we come.
maybe the KOCH brothers can swoop in and pay the salaries?
This is a Liberal town! That Mayor who is a LIBERAL wanted to raise taxes so these people could be paid. It was shot down.
If private companies ran as inefficiently as most city services they would be broke too. Always WAY more employees than is necessary - full-coverage health, dental, prescription insurance - fantastic retirement benefit packages - and ALL TAXPAYER FUNDED!
I have no problem with people making a living wage, but it is the greed of those paid by taxpayer dollars that created that mess. Now the city is trying to repair the damage by years and years of overpaying.
People need to purchase products manufactured ONLY in the US - keep your neighbors working. Stop using credit - become fiscally responsible. Force the US government to break free of the Federal Reserve - end our economic slavery. Stop gambling on Wall Street - break the back of the power brokers who make a fortune on our losses. Work for your money - stop feeling entitled at the expense of others. Actually work in a job that creates something useful and necessary - not just creating artificial wealth on paper. Help your neighbors - without expecting something in return. Learn the difference between WANT and NEED - Capitalism only works for those at the top leaving the majority in a state of economic slavery. Demand that our natural resources (oil, natural gas, etc.) NOT be allowed to be traded on Wall Street - these commodities are sold 30 to 40 times before reaching the end user at a HUGE price increase.
Just saying ...
This is a city with 77k population. The median income for a household in the city was $28,805. This was a coal mining city, today trying to make it as a tourist attraction. You have to wonder what this city has been doing to accumulate debt and be were it is with its finances.
total BS Tabasco Ed. I was born and raised in PA, my mothers was a teacher there for 40+ years who just retired this June. She made nowhere even close to $200k, she didn't even make close to $100k (and this is in a good high paying school district). Superintendents and bigwigs at the top may make six figures (and that's part of the problem), but it's certainly not "many" as you claim.
Lie more imo...
LOL, Scranton, a coal-mining town, is a "liberal town." Now I've seen it all. I've been to Scranton many times, my college roommate was from there. It's not a liberal bastion by any stretch of the imagination...
@armurray ... if your EFFECTIVE tax rate is 38% you are doing something radically wrong or need a new tax accountant. It's likely that 38% might (MIGHT) be your nominal tax rate which you're using (like most righties) loosely to burnish your own position.
Typical liberal / union mentality, if we cant get you to pay us, we'll sue you for it. The only one's who will end up with the money are the scumbag lawyers.
How about the union helping their town by dipping into their strike fund to get their members over the hump?? I don't see the union trying to help. they only care about them self's and not looking at the bigger picture that if the town is making money then they are making money. If they raise the taxes the union members will also have to pay that higher tax too, how does that help them?
Never Stop
Did you miss the part of the mayor and council being democrats? Mitt is not even president yet your saviour is. This city has most likely been run be the same for way to long and is now going to be under water.
So the Democratic Mayor and Democratic Council have finally figured out that they can't afford those costly union pensions.
When the Judge orders them to be paid their full wages, the only alternative is bankruptcy, since they obviously can't pay if they have no money in the bank.
The people of Scranton - the taxpayers - have no one to blame BUT THEMSELVES! This is what happens when you continually elect people who do not practice fiscal discipline and promise the world in order to win some votes. Typically, these would be Dems but it also happens with Repubs. I feel sorry for the city workers...if I were one of those cops or firefighters, I would definitely NOT put my life at risk for one of the city's brainwashed citizens who elected the inept govt officials!
Sounds like a familiar problem. Too much money spent and too many promises made to far too many people. Now the debt is so big there is nothing that can be done to reverse it, raising taxes wont cover it and neither will cutting paychecks either.
Time to move out of Scranton to a place that has been run with a bit more sanity.
People can't just vote themselves more money without it coming out of someone elses' pockets. When the people who are doing the paying have empty pockets, you can't promise more to others.
This is the face of a declining economy, not enough people paying and too many people demanding.
The apple cart will be toppled soon.
I hope that was sarcasm Dandy.
If there is no money you can't pay them. PERIOD. At least they can keep their job at minimum wage (for the time being). I suspect they are hoping many will quit since they probably can't fire them. It's sad and it's not fair, certainly first responders should be paid more than min wage, but if there is no money they get paid nothing.
As for it not being their issue because it was the previous administration ...GRRRRR... when will the blame stop so we can start fixing this mess.
When my brother and I were kids we fought a lot, we'd blame the other one for starting the fight. My dad didn't give a rat's a@# who started it he just wanted it finished.
It doesn't matter who's fault it is, what matters is who is going to fix it.
So, who is going to fix it?
The decree of minimum wage will not stand in Scranton! The court will order (force) the city to pay the workers their wages as designated by contract! Taxes will be raised on the Scranton Citizens to garner the needed revenue. Anyone want to bet differently?
Well I hope the Mayor, city council, and all the administrative employees in city hall are being cut to min. wage as well then!!! Sounds if the leadership in this town should have a great big red F tattooed on his forehead to show his major FAILURE at his job. As far as criticizing unions if there had never been unions all of America would never have had the lifestyles in which they have become accoustomed to. Unions had their time and place and were a major reason that today all workers have safe work conditions, aren't forced to work as darn near forced labor with no overtime, forced to work 6-7 days a week with no compensation for all the overtime hours, no sick or vacation time, NO health benefits at all etc.. etc. YES there is major greed and criminal activity at the top levels of Unions at times. Just the same as in the corporate world. Some think the police, firefighters etc.. are jsut being SOOO overcompensated. Yeah right!!!! 99% of those bitching about it wouldn't have the courage, the smarts or the physical ability to perform these jobs and would be the 1st screaming their heads off if they had an emergency and needed these peoples services. Volunteer fireffighters etc.. obviously have some other means of supporting themselves or they wouldn't be able to do volunteer work. You should NOT expect people who have done this job for pay to simply say oh well, I'll come to work for no pay, benefits etc.. How the hell are they supposed to pay their rent/mortgage, gas, car Ins., car notes and maintenance, utilities etc.. Are their landlords/lendors going to forgive their housing bill?? Will the city forgive their water,sewer and garbage bill as compensation for the pay cuts??? How about the gas and electric companies??? Gonna give electricity/gas to these employees and take a tax write off for it??? NO,NO,NO and ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!
I hope they're all able to relocate and find real pay for their work. You're going to attract nothing but inadequate fry cooks for that money
Man, some of the responses here are incredible. You have a Democrat Mayor and city council in Scranton that have run the budget into the ground. How is it Mitt Romney's fault? They dis the guy because he has the ability to make a $hitload of money all the while idolizing a President that can do nothing but squander a $hitload of money? This is nothing more than a short sighted Democrat planned fiasco. And when it hits the fan the fingers start pointing as if to say," if we were Rupublicans it would be worse"! Totally pathetic and that's why, JANUARY 20 2013 IS THE END OF AN ERROR !!
maga,
"the 'job creators' are the middle class consumers - without which there would be no demand for a product. You need to empower the middle class with an income that makes purchasing of 'extra' items an option."
Extremely well-put. Thanks for that.
Nobody is going to be a cop, fireman or other city worker (with the exception of maybe the janitor) for minimum wage! What a ridiculous PR stunt!!
If the City wants to file for bankruptcy or wait until contracts are up, they are clearly within their right to lower wages and benefits. But the whining, crying residents will have to get used to "no service" real quick. You want to pay minimum wage - you'll get minimum wage.
It's the politicians that have sold these cities down the river. They have paid for their personal and political gain by signing off on lucrative, unsustainable contracts - mainly with safety personnel. The employees only get what a politician has signed off on - it's not their fault.
I work for a city whose mayor gained political and personal gain by signing off on VERY lucrative contracts with Police and Fire. As miscellaneous employees, we knew that as soon as their was a bump in the economy, these would not be sustainable. And they aren't. We took furloughs, no raises, and cuts to our benefits. All because the politicians are dirty. So our employees and their families have suffered, just like private sector employees.
Yet residents still whine and complain and want the same service for and with less. Well, they aren't getting the same service, and isn't that just too bad?! They too will learn that everyone pays for these cuts - not just the employees who through no fault of their own, have had to pay for mismanaged cities by corrupt, idiot politicians - that are voted in by the residents!
Pelonius and company
It is always fun to prove a liberal wrong. Look it up yourself.
The federal corporate tax rate is about 38% for the first $500,000 and 35% for > $500,000. Specifically:
Taxable income over Not over Tax rate $ 0 $ 50,000 15% 50,000 75,000 25% 75,000 100,000 34% 100,000 335,000 39% 335,000 10,000,000 34% 10,000,000 15,000,000 35% 15,000,000 18,333,333 38% 18,333,333 .......... 35%Fenix1186, Demar,these are really bad ways to start your comments; Fenix1186, you're suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
Demar, you're banned. Out of chances.
Only two things could make this happen. The city is not collecting enough taxes, or (the most likely cause) The city politicians stole it all.
Either way...ballencing you're cities budget on the backs of the firefighters, police, and school teachers?? How sad...
Perhaps they will move to Canada, then they can see what it's like to work those jobs and actually be fairly compensated.
IS THE MAYOR WILLING TO DROP HIS PAY TO $7.25 an hour, along with his secretary and city council? What a sh!t.
Blame it on the working man, while the gop redistributes all the wealth up to those who have most of it already.
The middle class are the true job creators. The 1% just want to own you. They have already bought the supreme court, and most of the working class rightwing vote.
Guns, God and Abortion! (Pay attention to the cry, so we can pick your pocket while you're distracted...)
arm.....
Don't take it from me if you don't want to (although I have partnered in a business and have a daughter who owns a business) take it from someone who would most likely put both of our attempts to shame - Nick Hanuer (Amazon.com and other start-ups):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBx2Y5HhplI
I'm not sure exactly when, but there will be a day in the not-to-distant future that $7.25/hour will be considered a high-wage job. For many, many occupations wages will be routinely reduced to the worldwide average, not the inflated US rate we've been accustom to.
For all of the right-wing/conservative criticism of Chief Justice Roberts' recent ruling on the ACA, he has set something in motion that you will come to appreciate: The ruling makes unconstitutional the federal government mandating a person to purchase a product/service. Since the court has already held that corporations are "people" AND hiring someone (in exchange for money) is nothing more than a purchase (of ones' time), the federal government can no longer mandate a minimum (or maximum) wage/salary. It's only a matter of time before a company pays their employees less than the current minimum wage; the litigation ensues and, soon enough, is brought before this same court who has now set the precedent to overturn the federal minimum wage.
All of this without one member of congress having to cast one vote to repeal the minimum wage!
@sharriannie - yes, the mayor took a paycut to minimum wage as well. MSNBC for some reason isn't reporting it, but the Wall Street Journal did report that everyone was reduced to minimum wage including himself.
That’s the problem, unions think you can get blood from a rock! Unions are bankrupting cities all over the US but WHO CARES right?
As long as they get THEIR money!!
The entire State of Caifornia is in the same postion as Scranton but here liberal cries of taxes being too low simply don't work since the taxes are among the highest on the nation. The problem is excessive government spending, unions demanding non-market rate compensation and benefits, business hostile climcates choked by excessive regulation and bloated big nany state governments that ask for more and more from private citizens with each passing year. I feel sorry for the people in Scranton. Anyone with a financial interest in retail doughnut should probablu cut their losses now.
Scranton may be among the vanguard of American municipalities who will attempt this, but they won't be the last. And it's not only about wages, but benefits (particularly pensions) as well.
In the '80s, many municipalities bargained with their workers to secure their input at lower wages in exchange for better benefits: less up front in exchange for more on the back end. The city managers and other officials who negotiated these deals have long since retired, and can no longer be sued for their actions, yet they often 'failed' to fund the pension funds they negotiated, and so there is no money to pay these pensions, which are effectively compensation just as much as are wages. I'd say these folks had been swindled, but it wasn't that long ago that we were hearing a hue and cry for those who felt 'entitled' to receive such pensions: strange how things can take on a different hue when we think before jumping to conclusions.
This is reminiscent of the beginnings of the great depression, when people were thrown out of work by the tens of thousands, and those 'lucky enough' to stay employed did so for a fraction of what they had previously received. We're expected to empathize with the bosses, even though their profligate management styles are at the heart of the problem, but people are not really a 'resource' to be placed up on a shelf when they can no longer be profitably exploited; they need to eat and have a few things even when they are not working, and that's the most glaring point that our system of capitalism has always failed to address. Since it's unlikely that any changes are waiting on the horizon which might reverse the pattern of mismanagement and cronyism which have put us in this situation, what's next? A cull? It wouldn't surprise me, and it shouldn't surprise anyone else, either.
Never Stop - "Mitt, your Party "kills jobs" and attacks women, the poor, the old, students, the educated, and Modernism in general."
Did you read the entire article or would that interfere with your prejudice? The Mayor and Council are Democrats. It would appear these jobs and the lives of these workers are being ruined not by Republicans, but by Democrats. Would that alter your prejudice, and seemingly ignorant, statements at all?
The lack of reality here just astounds me. How can you say it's not their problem because the previous administrations didn't do their job? Of course they didn't, but it's STILL their problem because payroll comes due every two weeks and when the money runs out you can't pay people. What choice does the mayor have? Realistically, what CAN he do? You can file for bankruptcy and the re-organize all your city contracts (including pensions and pay) but when you are out of money, you are out.
Why do liberals think you can just go on spending? Are you all just used to the Federal government that says, "Put it on my tab"? Well cities and states can't just do that. THey can't just print money. They can borrow for awhile (issuing bonds, etc) but eventually only an idiot would buy them, so that dries up.
when people finally figure it out nafta...is the root of most of their employment problems...the rich that control our broke country...will laugh and say all that sweat equity...didn't work out for them to bad...now get your groove on...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bdeizHM9OU
armurray (1.82), those rates are marginal "paper" rates, not true effective rates which are arrived at by reducing gross corporate income by the multitude of generous deductions and credits. The actual effective tax rate is around 12.1%, as per a Wall Street Journal (a Marxist rag) study of Congressional Budget Office numbers, 2nd paragraph in:
http://business.time.com/2012/02/06/the-corporate-tax-rate-is-at-its-lowest-in-decades-is-big-business-paying-its-fair-share/
That's a lot less than the effective tax rate my wife and I pay, and we have gross income less than 6 figures, so tell me again how the corporations are suffering, sitting on billions of cash reserves right now, and paying their top management teams even higher and higher salaries and bonuses than ever before. Cut corporate taxes and they will just pay higher salaries and bonuses, and sit on even more cash reserves (at least they could pay out more dividends than they currently due to their shareholders, doesn't that seem fair).
Sheesh. One sure can see ignorance at work here. Now, if there is no money, as in broke, how do they get the money? Raising taxes. That's the ticket. That is the singular answer to any government problem. Broke? Hell, just raise taxes. Except if the town is broke they are probably broke because there is no economy there to tax sufficiently.
Socialism only works until you run out of other people's money and that is what is happening in many areas, not just Scranton. This is nothing new, towns have often dried up and blown away when the economy disappeared. Coal mining? That is a carbon based polluter of a fuel source. It must go and if it goes, so goes the economy since the economy was based on coal mining. Lawsuits for unions? Great, now what is going to be used to pay any settlements, coal?
Oh, so it’s just CORPORATIONS that aren’t entitled to be paid for their work?
Some people think they are ENTITLED to receive FREE medical care, FREE housing, FREE food, FREE daycare, and the list goes on…
Maybe they should just be mad at their unions for squandering their money on stupid meetings similar to the GSA fiasco, millions on campaign ads,…just look how much they wasted in Wisconsin, 44 million and LOST! Unions don’t care about their members, they only care about THEIR vested interests
The banks that WE bailed out are not lending them money to have a positive cash flow. That means THEY need to float the cost of doing business and many CANT! But if you feel better blaming the business owner and not the banks, go right ahead
The ONLY way this is going to become real to all those with the purse strings is if someone in their family or their home were to burn down because of this idiotic move. This happens...taxes to pay for public services will be increased and the level of service they expect will be what they will pay for.
For all of you crying about "Socialism"...what are you going to do with no police/fire fighters (public servants)? You can't privatize everything and expect the same level of service. Say it can't happen...read the news stories about the homeowners outside the city limits whose homes burned to the ground because they fell behind on their fee payments...thought they were covered or rolled the dice something wouldn't happen. Now...if the police/fire fighters are privatized and they tell you to pony up some money above your taxes before they will start protecting you/your home as a fee to come out? Better have the cash on hand or that credit card so they can swipe it. More and more police/fire departments are doing this to cover their costs. It's only going to increase as the cries for privatization increase.
Taxes are the admission price you pay for living in a society. According to all of you who want to privatize everything...it's progress when it's for you...but Socialism for anyone else.
This is a vicous circle that will continue. Tax base gone, money spent in the past, bad management, when any one bankrupts is hurts other people and businesses. Full circle. Where'd the money go? Give it a good guess. Learn a lesson from Iceland.
Will the last person to leave Scranton please turn out the lights?.....
Umm, ever hear of volunteer fire departments? Ever hear of people banding together in a community? The problem is that those 'social services' paid for with taxes are great until it gets to a point that the services cost more than the group paying for them can provide or afford. Union pensions, healthcare benefits and all that money being paid AFTER the person retires, with almost full salary need to be covered and who covers the costs? Not the retired and, note that they didn't pay enough into the system to cover the benefits costs, they couldn't.
Take a long hard look at California and Greece. Brown screams and begs for more tax monies and when the idiot taxpayers pony up because the claim that the state would go broke unless they did, he then turns around and uses that money not to pay for services and debt but rather, to create a multi-billion dollar transit system and not pay off the debt, well, the taxpayers got schtupped again.
Things are about to get even uglier in Scranton :( Tough decisions should have been made much, much sooner.
" ... All Obama can see is that these people who receive "free money" ... "
That's right blame the black guy in the White House. EVERYTHING is his fault. And what you don't blame him for, you blame on the old, the sick and the poor.
What an ignorant, arrogant @!$%#. Time to step up @!$%#head, and you and your conservative butt buddies to accept your share of the responsibility for the mess this country is in. After all it was under your Presidents watch that the bus was driven into the ditch. It was his two wars that weren't paid for. It was him that bailed out the banks. Oh that's right. We can't talk about Bush. And we can't blame him for the @!$%# he got us into now can we.
But then truth and facts are meaningless to you. You don't need them when God is on your side.
So--they owe "vendor bills." And what are the vendor bills? I understand that the city has no money, and I understand that the mayor very sensibly tried to raise taxes--but what are the vendor bills? If the mayor could see that money was running out, the time for drastic measures was before, not after, those "vendor bills" were accrued.
Personally, I think this is pretty much a publicity stunt on the part of the mayor's office--but let's say it is not.
The mayor should immediately disband all services that are nonessential--not lower them to minimum wage, but get rid of them altogether. This includes all libraries, all kindergartens (if they fund the schools) and all nonessential school employees (the parents can do the janitorial work), all community service centers, virtually all of the city government staff, and anything else that is nonessential. The essential services--such as police, fire fighters, sewage/water and so forth--should be given the choice of reducing their numbers (and working harder) or reducing their pay. I wouldn't tell them which to do--I'd let them pick. But, I sure as heck wouldn't send them down to minimum wage--you cannot hire a replacement at minimum wage (these people are very well trained and certified), and it is stupid to get rid of people who are already in town.
The mayor should stop collecting a salary, as should all the other city government officials, and should work for free until the situation improves. Seriously, if fire fighters can be expected to work for free ("volunteer departments"), the city officials can't?
I can be very practical--and, yes, I am a Democrat. But, cutting all the employees down to minimum wage--without first demonstrating that he has gotten rid of free food for committee meetings, the person who brings the coffee in to City Hall, the free cars and other perks of his office--is stupid.
What vendor bills? What are they for? Will the vendors be cut, also, or will those services be ongoing?
I just have to wonder how much money the city must pay each week to retired workers that put in their 20 years and left the city holding the bag?
This is a glimpse at the future people. Pay attention libbies. Your Union wages and pensions the tax payers are on the hook for may soon be going away. How long can anyone pay someone not to work? If a city the size of Scranton can fall to fiscal fiasco then Harrisburg will not be far behind. But Harrisburg is already in State recievership last I heard.
Only Obama and the Democrats think that this won't happen to me. People who live in glass houses?
“Fathom the hypocrisy
of a government
that requires every citizen to prove they
are insured, but not everyone must
prove they are a citizen.”
Mygirl1,
It is nice to see you out defending freedom again.
The problem here is yes we all feel bad about what is happening to the Scraton PA. public employees and the City's budget. And yes it isn't fair.
Since when has life been fair?
So now the Unions are going to sue a City with no money. GREAT! Let them spend their money on Ambulance Chasing Lawyers. The City shoud get a good deal defending themselves with a Public Defence Lawer making min. wage. (jk)
Mygirl1, you are on point as usual. This President has declared war on so many American industries like coal, oil, farming, mining, fishing, construction, sugar, fatty food, fuel for cars, and on and on. It is not really surprising that towns and areas have an economy that rely on theses things will go belly up. Remember in Obama's new transformed country electricity rates will necessarily have to go up and become a burdon on the consumer.
Why? Becauese you haveing affordable energy make you an me more free. And having affordable energy will not allow his agenda to move forward.
So you are completely correct. Ervery community in America who's economy is based on anything that Mr. Obama does not like better look out. they will soon be in the same situation Sranton is.if thay are not already there.
Truly a sad state to see America in. And totaly avoidable.
Paul-2539759,
Wow. Deep thinking and right on. Profound my man. Profound.
Scranton is out of money, with little in the way of revenue-raising prospects. There are clearly a lot of dillusional posters on this comment board who think money grows on trees.
You can feel entitled to something all you want - so what, if you can't collect? If I was a Scranton public servant, I'd start looking for a better paying job elsewhere.
George from Wa. State,
And when you get you head out of the sand and understand this has nothing to do with an as you say a "Black Guy" in the White House your comments may come to have merit. It does however have everything to do with a community organizer with little or no work history making decisions for the rest of us without the laws or rules by Presidential Fiat being forced on the citizens without being voted on by our Representatives in Congress.
But alas I hardly think I could hold my breath long enough for you to understand that.
D. Lowrey,
Obviously you have never heard of the concept of an all volunteer fire department. That is what my town had while I was growing up. People who cared about their communities willing to fight fires and save lives for free. That was on top of their regular job making a living for their families. I am sure it still exists in small communities with no budget for big paying jobs. I do hear firehouse cooking it super good in the big city's. See it on T.V.
By the Way. I am not putting down Firemen. Good people trying to make a living. Just like you and me. But when the the City can't pay...time to get another job to or hopefully start a business to provide for your family. And if you love firefighting so much then in your free time volunteer to be on call. Do what you can to help your community survive.
But then I am sure it is a little hard for those people who volunteer to see all of the takers who are able bodied refuse to hep the community too. When the takes become to many no amount of volunteering will offset the cost.
Sad. And yet again avoidable..
Most smaller communities have and had volunteer fire departments and volunteer EMS. Those people ACTUALLY VOLUNTEERED to help out their communities. They would have bake sales (now illegal in some areas, go figure) and swap meets and whatever else they could do to raise money for equipment. If the town or community became more affluent then they started casting about looking to hire people and pay them money to perform the services that had previously been done by volunteers.
Now, what happens if say the Union of Waste Management aka: garbage men went on strike? The city would pile up with trash and until the negotiations were settled, mountains of garbage filled the streets. Citizens who actually attempted to clean up the mess were excoriated, nevermind that had people been, say, less nasty, the trash might not have accumulated to that extent (think certain OWS locales) In smaller communities people would get together to take out the trash. Think that would still be possible in Scranton? Think people could come together to perform those social services out of a sense of civic duty or should they sit around and carp about how nasty the streets were getting?
mygirl1,
We can only hope that there are enough good people there to take up the need. I wish only for the best for Scranton and the people who live their. It is their community and they all have to become involved and take ownership at this point.
On a side note I am a fan of you. Keep up the good fight.
Is the Scranton Mayor Paying Himself and His Honchos $7.50 per hour?????????????????????????
Or is this character saying "Do As I Say, NOT as I DO". With World Overpopulation; WAY TO MANY PEOPLE Chasing Way to Few Jobs, as well as Products produced chasing fewer and fewer consumers AND the world Debt Problem At $60 TRILLION which may correct without being able to be altered or stopped, I would say this guy, Scranton Mayor, Is Running Scared. So are a lot of other Politicos. Here in California Governor Moonbeam is exacerbating the $17Billion debt by telling Illegals "When you get through the border gauntlet and make it here, I'm gonna' give you caballeros a FREE College Education." This includes FREE Tuition, Books, Tutoring, Room and Board, Food, Travel Allowance, Spending Money, Clothing Allowance, And FULL Health Care and Full Dental Care; Think that might stoke up the debt cooker?
Touchdownplay: And I'm a fan of yours. Keep up the good fight, I hope that commonsense becomes the guiding principles for governance (one can only hope) and I do indeed have faith in people. Oftentimes, it is when the chips are down that the best of human nature comes into play. Scranton will either make it or it won't, many towns and cities have some serious thinking to do, the voters need to quit voting their special interests and think about what is best for the common good, and also, quit thinking that because a politician promises something 'free' remembering that that goodie has to be paid for somehow.
Eat the rich seems a common theme these days, however, lots of formerly rich folks are feeling the sting. Utopian paradise ala socialism can only work if there is a productive group that can fund the government largesse. Taxing is useful except when said taxes are used to buy goodies that are only goodies for a special interest or two and only done to fulfil empty campaign promises.
I think we are at a crossroads these days. I remember the seventies, times were pretty tough then and inflation was through the roof, plus gas rationing and high interest rates and a stagnant economy. Americans have become some serious whiners. Latte too expensive? Ipad and IPhone not enough? Tutitions high? Hmmm. I was listening to a program on NPR, young man was making a similar comparison, Europeans in certain countries were upset that they didn't have it so nice anymore and were complaining about poverty. He came from a truly poor country, and his family was very poor, poverty of the type where he and his brother shared a pair of shoes. We don't have it nearly so bad, we just don't have it as good as we once did. That doesn't mean it can't be good again, but this time should be used in self examination of what is truly valuable rather than what is an unnecessary consumer product that one desires to own. Lots of people now living simpler lives and, oddly enough, seeming a tad happier with that simplicity.
Touchdoywnplay I tried to hold my breath till you understood the term "FIAT" but I turned blue....You need to go back to Glenn Beck's Mormon convert blackboard...And your "Representatives" in congress are what is making everything so effed up...You see each backwoods state getting two senators and California and New York and Texas getting two also is jacked up and causing a logjam of ideas to get us out of this mess...Even conservative ideas that could be compromised,instead you Teanuts voted to stop government from working because they refuse to compromise at a very critical time in the entire global community...But you think this is great...Thank God ( The real God not the Mormon one @!$%#ty Mitty worships that was created by a scam artist like the Tea Party created by the Koch Bros.) that Barack does have some power to circumvent these dudes and dudettes(Bachmann) and blame it in yourselves that it is this way,not him or us...Because he is willing to compromise and let the Conservatives have some input(Just look at the healthcare act,it is chock-full of capitalist/Conservative ideas like the mandate for all to purchase which you all fought about even though it was a conservative idea that was put in to garner GOP votes and none did anyway, we should have just got Medi-care for all because that is the liberal idea) but like said the teanuts want nothing done and block everything and go against their very own speaker of the house even...
Armurray.....You should take advantage of the tax incentives for hiring soldiers coming home instead of paying a temp agency owner money to pay slave wages to his employees while he sits on his rump making money for nothing...You would get better workers...Or just stop being greedy and hire employees directly...I don't understand why you pay a temp agency top dollar for workers who get peanuts and produce accordingly....You probably pay more per hour to that temp agency than you do for your top employees...People work better when they get paid better and the temp service owner is not the one working on your factory floor, the chump getting $7.25 an hour is...
SWphilly: It's apparent you don't own a company or business. One thing about temp workers, you don't pay benefits or have the taxes or regulators in your back pocket. If a business is doing well enough to be able to afford all the costs of hiring someone full-time, great. Perhaps you should enlighten us as to all the rules and requirements involved in hiring someone full-time.
As to Mormonism? Hmmmm. So you are against freedom of religion? You certainly are biased.
I live in a little town and we have this thing we call the "volunteer fire department" and this other thing we call the "volunteer ambulance service". Maybe it's not as good as having people sitting around playing cards waiting for an emergency, but it's worked pretty well there for over 100 years. Many city functions could be done by volunteers. Why not staff the library with volunteers? There are lots of seniors looking for things to do.... Of course, how about requiring people who draw food stamps to volunteer to keep their city/county running?
The model of paying everyone in government is breaking down because there aren't enough taxes coming in to support it. We HAVE to look for other alternatives. Yeah, I feel bad for people who are losing their jobs, if the money isn't there, the money isn't there.
Mygirl---I can tell one thing about you just by your screen name, you are a narcissist...I mean for real who else's girl are you besides your own since you named yourself that? Yes I have been an owner of a company and I am very aware of the qualifications for hiring someone and also the benefits since they made me money and I treated them that way..Not like a pariah like most of you do...You think you are "Giving" them a job instead of thinking of it the right way and that is that they are giving you extra income from their sweat...You are only "giving" them the opportunity to make you and them money as a partnership...But I am not a greedy self-serving narcissist...
As to your freedom of religion comment where did I say people don't have the freedom to worship whoever or whatever they want ? Answer is nowhere never in my life and I can say that with full confidence.....I did poke fun at the cult known as Mormonism and being a cult doesn't disqualify it as a religion,there are lots of cults that are also masquerading as religions and I have the "FREEDOM" to make fun of them all....You see it seems to be you who would like to take away my freedom to do that....Just like a GOP member....YOU are FREE to do whatever you want as long as it falls in the acceptable lines of their White-Anglo-Saxon-Male parameters....And we will soon see in November if being Mormon is acceptable to them by exit polling....Now don't get me wrong I know you nuts will vote for him as the lesser of two evils Blacky McBlackman vs. Mitty McMormon, but in reality you loathe either...because they are different...And you loathe paying anybody wages to work as made clear by us having to have a minimum wage and the statistics out there showing how many are paid just that and no more....And you can make all of the exuses you want but the reason people use temp services for employees is because they are sold on the concept at the country club or church by the owners of the contacts on these wage slaves who are profiting on the sweat of others by nothing but their ability to sell...
If I have to balance my checkbook , every month, with what I make, then why can't Gov't officials do it?
You just STOP spending
Common sense isn't too common..
Know when to say when
You can't fix stupid
Enough is enough
Even at minimum wage most public employees are grossly over paid.
I wonder how much the Mayor earns with his salary.
Let's say the mayor makes $398,000 per year. There are 398 employees, so that is $1000 each or 50 cents per hour more per worker, if the mayor worked for free. That makes their pay $7.75 per hour, not much to risk your life in fire or police work.
This is why the executive gets a raise and others don't, there is one of them and hundreds of you! Simple numbers that say the mayor needs to bring in revenue and stop the GOP insanity. The rich have money and have gotten it for decades from the backs of the productive workers. Tax the wealthy individuals and corporations, they have been robbing us blind for decades and this must STOP!
I bet the mayor gets paid $70,000 or so.
Unless it is a huge city, most mayor positions are not a paid gig.
i know the City I work for in here in Texas does not draw a paycheck, neither does the City Council.
Oh, it's most certainly a paid gig but not that extravagantly.
"he rich have money and have gotten it for decades from the backs of the productive workers" So where these workers not paid what they agreed on for their services? Did they work for free? It is statements like this that show absolute blindness to reality. The rich have the money because they did what it took to get the money. They risked their own capital and time. It is ONLY because of greed and jealousy that cause someone to think the rich did not earn their wealth. "Fair share" is another stupid idea not based in reality. A progressive tax system is contrary to normal thinking. My income should not determine my tax requirement. In the real world a service is paid a set price based on the service NOT the income of the customer. Only in the warped mind of a liberal government could such a twist be found.
Yes, of course the mayor won't be the one taking a pay cut! Typical of any high-up in any scenario- set a great example!
...Most inherited it. How much harder does the guy who earns $10 million work? Jealousy has NOTHING to do with it. That's something only someone who feels guilty would say. Frankly it's unpatriotic thinking like yours that has this country in the mess it's in.
He took the pay cut too.
Time to take a step back and look at what the real problem is. at the basic level its not enough income to cover the bills. Why is that? Where is the money being spent? Do you have too many side projects going on to improve the city? Too many so called experts, providing consulting services? A mass transit problem? Too many lawsuits against the city?
Lets face it, no one likes to see their tax rate increased, but at times you must increase it to keep the city in the black. They need to go back to the table with the opposition and work together to improve the lives of everyone, not just a few.(yea I know its a socialistic concept, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few)
Personally, no matter what job I was in, I'd be looking to get out of it and move somewhere else. Police are there to ensure order, and without their presence, I'm sure we'll be seeing mob mentality on the news soon.
LaVall: While a progressive tax system may seem contrary to normal thinking, it is quite logical. Look at your analogy - services are a fixed price. If that's the model, why don't we all pay the same fixed tax regardless of income - say you and I and Bill Gates all pay $1000 of taxes a year? We don't because a fixed tax is a poor model that doesn't reflect real-world wealth. Likewise a single tax rate is only a slightly improved model because the power of wealth isn't linear.
As income grows, power of wealth grows faster still. Once you make enough money to meet your basic needs, you have money left over to save with interest or to invest with a lower tax rate. You have the opportunity to buy in bulk. As you get richer still, you can hire a lobbyist to influence public policy in a way that favors your business. There are all kinds of ways that you can leverage you wealth that go far beyond what a simple linear model could account for.
welcome to the club. its getting bigger. wonder which bush is to blame. maybe everyone should join my family because i take blame for everything. if something happens and i dont stop it i should have seen it coming...........
goodforgoodnesssake,
"I wonder how much the Mayor earns with his salary."
Do you mean how much he earns in salary over and above what he lines his pockets with from the public treasury on the sly? That may explain why the city only has $133,000 left.
LaVall, my best friend works for the city of NY, also where I live and the workers are anything but "productive". Don't kid yourself.
get rid of the pensions...no city can afford to keep paying the salary of the current employees PLUS 30-40 years of salaries of all of those that have retired at age 50 or 55. Pay the current workers more money and let them invest in a 401k (or public equivalent) and/or IRA like the rest of society.
goodforgoodness-a previous article stated that the mayor cut his OWN salary to minimum wage also.
Suing the city is completely counterproductive. The more they have to pay in legal fees, the less they can afford to pay their workers! duh!
Yes, it sucks about the pay cut but the answer to everything is NOT a lawsuit. Lawsuits fail to make anyone rich but the lawyers.
time to go work for Dunder Mifflin
The class of infinite greed shipped all our jobs over seas to increase their profits and now they are after government workers:
Nobody is asking how much the CEOs of the Vendor companies are making. How about hell-th insurance? William McGuire United Health, 128 Million in one year, CEO, Stephen Hemsley, $102. How many people's benefits and procedures were denied and they died so these corporate Nazis could get their American Holocaust booty? What about DBH the faulty flack jacket manufacturer's CEO with 250 Million in one year? Worse than that what about the true banker bail out figure of 16.1 TRILLION $. Do you hear Obomination or Mr. Magic underwear say anything about this robbery and enslavement of American workers? Money in a Republic is supposed to relate to the exchange of goods and services not as a tool of madern slavery; the US constitution has articles that enforce that if our entire government was not full of criminals. We need national social ownership of our monetary system now. Anybody that says otherwise is involved at one level or another in a criminal conspiracy. Wake up America! Demolicans and Republicrats are divisions of the same criminal party, VOTE INDEPENTENT in 2012 or die.
He cut his pay down to minimum wage as well.
No one is saying this is an ideal situation, the Mayor himself has said repeatedly that he did not want to have to do this, but the city has no money. They only have $ 5,000 in the bank. For a city! He has been warning about this for a VERY long time and the City Council chose to ignore it, and rather than enact a budget with real cuts and necessary tax increases (Which nobody wants on either side of the issue) they chose to continue with an unsustainable budget and point fingers at the Mayor for the problems THEY are creating. I do not feel it is too much to expect these people in office to have some responsibility with money.
And I don't blame the city workers for being upset, I would be too. But their frustration is misdirected and should be focused on the City Council members creating the problems in the first place. They have blocked every effort to try to reign in cost and get the city on a path to solvency. When questioned about it they claim that there are no money problems and it's a figment of people's imaginations... It's juvenile ostrich-like behavior and needs to stop.
Is the city being bought/run by Bain Capital?
Three easy steps to balance the budget for any city, state or business:
1) eliminate pensions - old people should be made to work until they drop
2) get rid of health care benefits - hey, if you can't afford your own health insurance, too bad
3) cut the minimum wage - our CEO's need the money, after all
Just so you know.. Hey guys if you're going to make this a republican bashing thread...
Christopher Doherty
Political party
Democratic
Down to minimum wage? That's the end of that city.
Can you imagine ANY firefighter, police officer, or teacher staying in that city with that salary.
There will be a huge migration from Scranton.
Ted,
That may be his proclaimed party, but it does necessarily mean that that is how he votes.
The corporations and the wealthy get out of paying their taxes and the middle class is being whittled down, so the tax base is shrinking. This will be happening to the rest of workers in both the public and private sectors. Eventually, there will only be the wealthy and the poor, unless "We, the people" develop backbones and DEMAND a change!
Obviously, Scranton needs to cut taxes.
goodforgoodnesssake,
i'm trying to understand what your point is ???,,,,Is it also "un patriotic" for those who enjoy larger incomes (. celebrities, profesional athletes, entertainment celebrities for example) to make so much larger incomes than say a salaried position or houly wage earner, or skilled professional ????
why should those examples earn so much ???
I would have to ask : "who's efforts are worth more than the next guy?" ,,shouldn't we all earn the same wage to be patriotic to our country ?
I think I'll be just as patriotic american "taking care of myself" ,,,,and not complaining or being resentful that others may have more than me,,,,,,,,"even if I believe that they only inheritied wealth and not earned it "
Frankly , I don't wnat to make that statement about others ,,,,it's not for me to be envious of some one elses status
robbo-
Your steps to balancing the budget will also throw such a city into recession. Cut incomes means you decrease buying ability.
No one buying? Economy halts.
What does the city hope to gain by paying city workers minimum wage? You can't pay rent, utilities and food on minimum wage. It should be obvious even to simpletons that trickle down economics DO NOT WORK. And as far as taxing those "Job Creators" with a higher tax rate, the American public is the real job creator, if you make a crappy product, it doesn't sell.
You get what you pay for, is an old saying. You pay me the bare minimum, that is the quality of work you'll get out of me, the bare minimum. The better the pay, the better the quality of my work and knowledge goes into making your products. If I were a city worker working in Scranton, I'd be looking for a job elsewhere, before your minimum wage paying job gets you stuck in Scranton with no hope of finding something better.
Seriously? The city employees are getting minimum wage and you b astards are still bitching about how much someone working for the city makes? Enough is enough before this entire country goes to the s hit hole. Just pay taxes for the services you receive!!! Else imagine a world in which there is no public library, roads, highways, police, fire department, sewage, or education! Imagine that all being privatized. Guess how much you're gonna pay then!! Guess how much the head of the schools will make then!! Idiots.
Only anti science republicans can think you will afford basics when you keep cutting taxes on the only group of the population that has any money.
Keep on thinking those Gen Y workers making $9/hr are going to pay the bills, you deserve to go broke and have social security, medicare, police and firemen go bust. We get closer to trickle down utopia Somolia every day.
What is it then? They paid the inheritance tax on it. How about if you share that. Those people have to work harder to keep what they have, than we do to get what little we have. Good, you are perfect example of liberal thinking. Go out and create some wealth of your own so your kids can inherit it. Never mind, by time you can leave it to your heirs, your liberal friends will have passed laws eliminating inheritance, it will all go to government to redistribute.
Might as well lay them off. Can't pay them and the City can't afford the legal fees. Suing the Mayor for performing his duties won't happen, he the protected by law and it would have to be proved that there was malicious intent. Sometimes a crumb is better than none.
The mayor did not stumble into this situation - not having enough money- overnight. Many, many cities have faced this since 2008. The solution is acting fast, reducing costs, increasing fees or taxes, and generally downsizing. I work or a city that went through this and we have survived. Our mayor and council get paid, we contribute more to our retirement, have had no pay raises since the mid 2000's but we have our jobs - but also a much reduced workforce and services. The huge drain in the budget is paying for safety - police and fire - who were still getting 10 percent raises until a couple of years ago and now cost the majority of our city budget. I'm not going to put down any profession, but I do wonder about this worship of police and fire departments, their overtime agreements etc. when it comes at a cost of other fundamentals like having safe parks, public facilities, street lighting etc. Yet the public seem to not question a firefighter making more than $80k a year basic. Oh well, you get what you ask for.
@ goodforgoodnesssake,
Those are my thoughts. If he is making more than minimum wage he is over paid!
Well when Bain was helping Bain to get out and Romney was running it he was paid $1 dollar a year until bain could leave bain healthy and move one investing in other company's.
Who the hell here is talking about a single guy's status... You right wing sheep are suuuuuuuch morons!!! The economy is a SYSTEM, a BROKEN SYSTEM. When you can look at our distribution 35 years ago and see that the middle class made much much more of the overall percentage of earnings and spent it over and over in the community, and then compare that to 2008 when the wealthy were earning 93% of all income taken in over the last 10 years, this is a national shift - there is a reason why these lucky saps who you guys fall all over yourselves worshipping are getting that way and it has nothing to do with hard work or talent. Money creates more money, and right wing policies have slashed their taxes and made it vastly easier for the top 1-2% to abuse the labor and costs of the bottom 98%, to the point our country is destined to completely collapse. Economics requires supply and demand, you randian cultists have slashed demand to the bone by refusing to see the value of a customer, by being so braindead to connect that the guy making more than minimum wage shows up at your neighbors shop the next day to buy things, and vice versa.
Creating more guys like Romney is not going to revive the economy, it will utterly destroy it and if we allow that to happen we deserve to be the 3rd world country we are rapidly on the way to becoming.
I wonder how much campaign contributions this city invested in...just curious really
*did they invest in any commercials or air time for a candidate....did they make signs or go door to door...was money given to a politician instead of payroll???
I just want to see what is rolling around in the background and if at all this city was gambling away their money on a politicians promise..
not trying to insinuate that is what happened, I am just curious what all "politician" activities they have been involved in...and if at all money when to a campaign instead of in the payroll account.
Well, the unions have sucked another city dry and now they insist they be paid oblivious to the reality that there's no money in the piggy bank for them. Their reaction is to sue so they can get paid with money that doesn't exist.
BTW, the 3rd term mayor is a progressive/democrat.
The problem is that these public employees will not be able to make their house payments, rent payments, car payments credit payments and the circle continues. This is a very STUPID move. People of Scranton need to raise their taxes or fees for service - or else they will have not second rate but third rate public employees. Good luck on your crime, education and fire fighting.
The same thing needs to be done in Montgomery Co. Maryland .The workers salary and pensions have our taxes very high. Not down to min. wage but cut.
This article tells me nothing. What were the problems going on here where did the money go? Most cities move a long by buying bonds, bidding their time a little, and borrowing on these bonds. What was this city doing or not doing. This article is like trying to read swiss cheese.
Feds set the min. wage.......Obama is the fed........If they don't like min. wage than start layoffs and rehire at $8.00 hr. They can have obamacare & SSI.
Prove it - I guess city employees don't buy anything or pay any bills with that money do they? I'm sure it wasn't tinkle down right wing borrow and spend that did it, was it?
These people walk INTO burning buildings to save people. 80K would not be enough for me to walk INTO a burning building and risk my life once-let alone on a daily basis.
If we expect people to put their lives on the line daily, we need to pay them appropriately.
The mayor probably makes peanuts and, I hate to say it, but at least they still have jobs. I've been laid off before and I would rather take a temporary pay cut that be let go. I say temporary because at least they will have a check while they look for new employment.
What level of experience and competency do you expect to get for these $8 per hour police and firefighters?
You would entrust your family's saftey to someone at that level? You want that guy coming in to save your kids when your house is on fire as opposed to an experienced professional.
What value do we place on the services these peopple provide? Saving peole from fires? Protecting us from crime? I place a lot more than $8 per hour!
So once again the workers take it up the A--. Ill bet none of the FAT CAT politicians are taking a cut or stopping a luncheon, or giving up their other perks. This is just like all the big buissnesses screwing their employees. What a crock of crap! whan is enough enough. The money didn't just dry up.
lol you should look into how much a raw infantryman makes in the Army. I can tell you even with hazardous duty pay it isn't 80k. Probably less than 20k stateside and maybe 30-35k deployed and their job is way more dangerous than a fireman. Not that I am taking anything away from firemen.
Lavall from the type of person you sound like...there's no way in HELL I want you "policing" any neighborhood! You're probably one of those fantatics who believes "shoot first ask questions later!" You're truly insane if you think everyone should be walking around carrying a gun "policing" their neighborhood. We SHOULD have police and firemen! I'm willing to bet you wouldn't rush into a burning building and save someone's life. I love when pompous blowhards speak out of their asses and have nothing worthwhile or even semi intelligent to say.
Stephaniecali,
No the city didn't get into this overnight and yes the mayor has tried different measures to shore up the finances. The problem is the mayor's power is limited and it is the city council's responsibility to pass budgets, approve hikes in fees, and raise taxes! The mayor can propose these items, but it is the city council that must approve them!
As for fire fighters and police officers, I think in some cases they are underpaid for the sacrifice that is required. Their jobs are extremely dangerous and require sacrifices in time that often can destroy their families. Ask yourself this question, would you enter a burning building to save another individual? Or, would you walk into a crack house to make an arrest without knowing whether there is an armed individual on the other side of the door that would rather shoot you than go to jail? These careers take strong individuals who make many sacrifices, sometimes daily to do their jobs, how much are they worth?
SJC: First of all, this is a city run by DEMOCRATS. Higher taxes just means that more people will leave.
This is what happens when democrats focus on too many social issues; and not enough on businesses.
Finally a Mayor with the guts to do what is needed..... THANK YOU
Fascinating that the first reaction of the Union is to sue a broke city. Why not go sue an open field or a turnip? Where's the money for the lawyer coming from? What do they expect to receive if they win? Is the city going to suddenly run into gold chunks underneath the streets which they can redistribute to pay off all the promises they couldn't keep? Scranton government workers, uh, you're f*cked. Pull your chips from the table and move on. It doesn't help to keep b1tching about it.
The best thing these guys (union, gov't workers) could do would be enact a law that requires governments to notify people how their assets sit in relation to the operating budget. A simple statement printed on their pay stub. As in, 'We now have a 50% probability of paying all the assets you were promised'. 'We now have a 25% probability of paying all the assets you were promised." and so forth. I think these guys are pissed because they were blindsided. They probably thought the Scranton government was like the Federal government and could print money when things got bad. They probably still think that. Hey kids, governments go bankrupt. Look at Haiti.
The editors of msnbc strike again. They specifically don't mention if the office of mayor is a paid position or not and fail to make any argument on how the city will meet their financial obligations.
Then we have all the idiots above saying to get the money from the wealthy, corporations, etc, etc. That their local economy will suffer because the city employees can't spend like they used to. People, if 398 city employess have that great of effect on the local economy then that government has bloated manpower and operational issues. Seems that many of you posters have no concept of city government and how funding is acheived for operations just that you think any government entity should support you.
Bet you are also the same type of person who thinks that the city government should support all sorts of local programs but when it comes to property tax rates don't raise my taxes, let someone else pay them.
I agree that they should make more. It is a tragedy that people are risking their lives for our country overseas and their families are on food stamps.
However, lowering the pay of firefighters and police does nothing to help soldiers. Also, at minimum wage-the police and firemen would be making about 15K per year. That would actually be less than the soldiers.
This is a reality of a GOP run/ Corporate minimum wage society we are heading for..its what the republicans fight for and why corporations buy up those republicans..if you dont think so then elect more republicans..The democrats always fought for the working person..always! How the hell are we gonna fix our economy on minimum wage? duh. I realize this is because there are no tax revenues but there would be revenues if big business and GOP were not trying so hard to keep jobs in the economy so they can achieve thier lower wage goals...it is what it is..corporate profits at all time high and we ghive them more tax breaks that we have to pay for with layoffs in our communities...keep hiring those trader republicans and expect something different? thats the definition of insanity! Wake up liberal AMERICA! Waker up conservatives! the GOP are using you to cut your own lifestyles..see ya at the breadline if there is even a breadline.
If you braindead conservastives dont like msnbc the GET OUT! Your part of the problem and have no brain! Keep cheerleading corporate takeovers of society your poor dumb fools..Liberals are going to rise up this november YOU FREGGIN IDIOTS.
The median income for a household in the city was $28,805 and the median income for a family was $41,642. and it has a population of almost 80K only 15% of the city is below the povety line. Christopher Doherty is a democrat and a third term mayor.
Time for Mayor McCheese to come out of retirement?
In the private sector when the unions suck a business dry the unions just move on.....(but the private sector is doing just fine). Public sector unions just bankrupt Cities, but can't move on. Give um $7.25 or fire um............
Presidents of unions pay-----
Trumka afl-cio: $300,000 yr.
McEntee AFSCME: $479,000 yr.
John Niccollai united food & commercial: $527,000 yr.
Scardelletti Transportation & Communication : $693,000 yr.
McClathy Boilermakers union : $607,000 yr. + brother, sister, niece, uncle, and son pulling over $100,000 yr. each?
NOW TELL ME WHY THIS TOWN IS BROKE!!!!! UNION GREED
Maybe it's time to cut the city council and the mayors budget as well along with their pension plans.
The people running the city are the ones imo that have robbed the city of their funds with their paid vacation and other perks. It time to cut their salaries by 75%.
Government and politicians are the biggest waste of money we have today in America.
Knightofdespair 2.42
Easily proven. The lion's share of their debt is due to unpaid union insurance premiums. In any event, the mayor and his city council are attempting to secure a 16 million dollar loan, and if successful, the mayor said they will reimburse those that have had their salaries reduced to minimum wage.
Problem solved? For now, it seems but that's just kicking the can down the street because when the money from the loan is used up, they'll be right back where they started, except they now have that additional 16 million in debt to contend with.
Raising taxes? If you look at the city demographics, Scranton is a blue collar town which means there isn't much available in taxing opportunities.
Heads of the Mafia?
There are a couple problems I see. Democrat leadership, and public unions. The taxpayer cannot afford public union employees. They are bankrupting nearly every city in the US. They dictate work rules so the efficiency is much less than private sector. This admin has bailed out teachers, police and firefighters once already this term. Look at the most ravaged/broke cities in U.S., and you will see Democrat leadership.
Time for the mayor to gather all his constituents and scream "This city declares...BANKRUPTCY!!!"
Trust2112...LMFAO!!! Are you freaking kidding me?!?
Quality based on pay...you have got to be freaking kidding me. You and anyone like you are the problem with this country. You all think you should make a million for flipping a damn burger! GET OVER YOURSELVES...YOUR NOT THAT IMPORTANT!!!!!!!
Thank you so much for confirming a suspicion Ive had for a long time that people like you existed. Now I truely believe that the great majority of people in this world dont deserve the air they are breathing. Look at what attitudes like yours have done to this great country.
You give me subpar work because you think your not getting paid enough..well you wont be getting paid at all. Common sense, which seems to be gone in this world, should tell you that. Quality of work is what gets you noticed...if you cant see that than you are getting paid much more than you deserve!
DONT BLAME THE GOVERNMENT...LOOK IN THE FREAKING MIRROR!!!!
'hubydoll166' - Let's follow your logic - another democrat ruled and run city goes broke - it must be the fault of the GOP? The public sector union party is OVER!! (thank goodness). As more people realize that tax and spend big government doesn't work, they will come to realize that hating the wealthy is not going to bring fiscal sanity. Some (like 'huby') will never wake up, but I have HOPE that enough will to make a fundamental CHANGE at the local, state and federal level this fall. 'Huby' can always emigrate to Greece.
They are going to need to use the army to be our police right here if the distribution of income increases much farther. Minimum wage is inadequate to live indoors and eat even in Scranton. I believe it also exempts one from owing very much or any income tax. One's social security will also be inadequate to support life if one is a minimum wage worker, especially since one would never have afforded to buy a house.
But don't worry they are lowering the cost of citizenship to buying a house for $250,000 so your rent money will make its way out of the country to a foreign landlord. Too bad there are not reciprocal immigration agreements so our destitute could flood other lower cost nations.
We are witnessing the results of pure crony capitalism.
You have to ask yourself where did the money go. After the privately owned banks and Wall Street sucked the real estate market dry (on paper), billions of our actual greenbacks went to private corporations to make up for their lost paper when their Ponzi scheme ended and came to fruition. You don't see the federal government bailing out the cities; only private corporations have been bailed out (which is totally against the "capitalistic" model).
Through real estate and the war (private contractors), the wealth of America was transferred, with the cooperation and assistance of our federal government, from the people, to the private corporations.
Unless "we the people" can unite and demand some drastic changes, we're screwed. The decision makers (politicians and government), no matter their affiliation, are operating out of control and only in their own best interest.
Arieus,
The mayor's action includes himself, and everyone else! He has also been warning the city council over this issue for some time. He didn't just wake up one morning and was surprised that the treasury was empty. The city of Scranton is run by a Democratic city council and a Democratic mayor, it is not surprising to see it go the way of Detroit, New York, and Chicago three other cities run into the ground by democratic leadership.
hubydoll - LOL at your post 2.56. I thought the left wanted to promote change and hope. Yet now you bitch about those wanting a balanced news report.
BTW folks, there are lots of links reporting on this and it does seem that the mayor also got a pay cut to minimum wage. Some links also are reporting that the total city shortfall is more like around $16 million with the $3.4 million past due vendor bills being only a a part of their deficit. Looks like if someone wants the most reliable facts on this they need to visit scrantons city web site to get the actual data.
Perhaps I assume that just because the city I live in has that type of data available online, scranton will too.
For all the Republican bashing posts, this is a blue collar union city full of Democrats, run by a Democratic Mayor, and a Democratic City Council.
Has been for over 50 years.
Hubby doll,
The liberals are in power and you have almost destroyed everything, and, of course, blamed everyone else. I hope you guys keep on getting elected. Sometime you will realize that you are responsible for this mess!
Good luck in November.
SJC 3, You really hate republicans. If you had read the article you would have seen the mayor and the city council are DEMOCRATS.
Poor is poor and it does not matter what party you are in!! I don't know how people live on minimum wage but we are all being forced to tighten our belts and I don't see that changing anytime soon. We have to start to learn to live as Americans not just as a certain party.
Return to the Pre-Bush tax base and cut the hell out of the DoD's budget!!
I never will understand some of the right wing sheep on these comments that will perpetrate the little guy should just bend over and take a wage cut and more taxes for the sake of affordability... while zealously defending that the wealthy shouldn't have to sacrifice anything because they earn every single penny threw hard work.
Does hard work not count unless ur wealthy?... do people not deserve the wage that was agreed upon unless your wealthy? If your benefiting more form a society everyone works in wouldn't it be reasonable to pay more to that society?
Putting money in the hands of the average joe that have to/would spend that money stimulates the economy way more than putting it in peoples hands that would just horde it and not spend it.... basic economics.
Perhaps the upper echelon positions should try lowering their wages first. They can afford it and still survive comfortably. Bosses seldom (if ever) give themselves a cut back in earned wages.
Wow, in just over a half hour I have found out the following...
2010 census data says the population is 76089 with a mean of 2.33 people per household and total number of firms (2007 data) is 4631
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/42/4269000.html
Hmmmm...
76089/2.33=32,656.33 households + 4631 businesses=37287 potential taxable entities
Looks like the fair thing to do is just have a one time property tax increase on each household and business by $91 to pay off the past due vendor accounts of $3.4 million or by $429 if the city's real shortfall is closer to $16 million. Yet the mayor and city council can't reach a plan? Perhaps what they really can't reach is a plan to avoid having such shortfalls in the first place.
Then check out scrantonpa.gov I wonder if their promoting scranton pa as "pennsylvania's progressive city" has anything to do with their shortfall.
To all those "dits" out there, the Mayor cut his wages to the minimum also. Still think there are better ways as this bird just won't fly.
How many civil servants are really going to stay for min wage? I don't think many will. Looks like job creation is in the works. All those cops can now go into private protection, the firefighters can create their own client base for fire protection, garbage men "you call we haul". Since all these are vital to civilized life, they can charge what ever they please. They can manage on a maintenance base or charge out the nose for immediate one time needs. I can not see any real need for politicians though.Time to start your new business as this is coming to a location near you.
SJC3,
Stop the GOP madness????? Both the mayor and all of the city concil are democrats. Read the story! And by the way the mayor cut his salary as well.
Here is the problems as I see them. It's easy to become a vicious circle. You can't automatically raise taxes to cover all your costs in these situations because you can easily end up pushing your tax base into bankruptcy and then you get even less revenue. (How many of you have money left over for a tax increase? How many of you would be forced over the edge into a downward spiral if you have to pay 5 to 10 percent more in local taxes?)
You also have to pay people enough so they can afford to work for you or they have to leave.
It sounds like this town has been in decline for years. The economic down turn just made it worse. Finding enough money to stay in the black in cases like this is very tough. What do you do when your city has only a few thousand dollars in the bank and most likely your tax base is just scraping by as it is? You can't make money magically appear.
In general, these problems have been in the making for decades but our politicians have been much more willing to push the problem off for someone else later to fix - anyone but them. They just want to make promises they know can't be filled forever. You can't spend more than you take in forever. You can't promise everyone everything. You can't steal from one account to prop up another account forever. The voters aren't any better really. We sell our votes based on the best "bribe" we can get. Screw the other guy as long as we get our benefit. And yes that goes for both sides of the political spectrum. When you vote for someone because they promise to give you something then you have already screwed the pooch. When politicians started doing this long ago, the voters should have ran screaming in the other direction. But they didn't and now the bill has come due. We pay or our kids pay.
Because this has been going on so long, now that the rainy day has come we have nothing left to cushion the blow. Our already huge dept is skyrocketing making us spend far more money for interest instead of usable goods and services. The numbers are mind boggling. I doubt there is enough wealth in the US to pay off the combined nation/private debt.
Good job folks. Our politicians have promised us the world and we voted them in for doing so. Most all of us didn't bother to figure out what the real cost was going to be. We saw something we desired and dove in with both feet without looking where we were jumping.
1.) Mayor of Scranton is a paid position. The mayor took the pay cut as well.
2.) As of last week, the city had $133k in the bank. Enough to pay the city workers minimum wage and no more.
3.) This did not happen overnight. The Mayor and City council are at odds and have been for a very long time, which is why nothing is getting passed.
4.) The city workers have contracts. They will be paid their full salaries retroactively when the city gets their finances straightened out.
5.) The city can not borrow any more money or get any new bonds at the moment, because they let our sewer authority default on a bond payment the city had guaranteed. They later made the payment, but the damage had been done. No one will lend or bond the city any more money until the mayor and council agree on a financial recovery plan. The city truly is without working capital to pay the salaries.
6.) Scranton has had the 'Financially Distressed City" tag for 20 years. It is far from a new problem.
7.) The unions can sue all they want. Can't get blood from a turnip. There simply is no money. If the city's health insurance is allowed to lapse, and I can't see how they're going to make the payment, procuring new group health coverage is going to be an expensive nightmare.
8.) The unions know their workers are going to be paid retroactively. This is just a ploy to force the hand of Mayor and Council.
-Just a local clearing a few things up :)
TOTAL BALD FACED LIE, the vast majority of millionaires in the US earned it in their lifetime, and the majority of estate money people think it left to relatives is actually donated to charity. Example: Paris Hilton got just 1 percent of what she THOUGHT she would inherit form the Hilton estate, most of the rich donate to enhance thier legacy and or help people whether you believe it or not.
Also, here is a fact to chew on, the 10 cities in the US with the highest poverty rates have been run by DEMOCRATS ONLY for DECADES.
An interesting correlation between America’s poorest cities and their overwhelming control by the Democrat Party can be seen, with some cities never having elected a Republican mayor.
Here is a breakdown:
City, State, % of People Below the Poverty Level (pop. 250,000+)
(U.S. Census Bureau, 2006 American Community Survey, August 2007)
Democrat Party Rule in these Cities
Time to face the facts poeple.
@goodforgoodnesssake
What statistics do you have that show most inherited it? I'm a CPA and know several "Rich" people. None of them inherited anything. And how much harder do they work? much much harder. It's not the hard work they put while earning the $10 Million, it's the years of hard work, 24x7 for little or no money while risking everything they have to get there. For every successful "Rich" person I know, I know a dozen or more who lost everything trying to get there.
Most of America's cities-rich and poor-are being run by democrats. Urban areas tend to be more liberal. If you were to post the most successful cities-guess who would be running most of them...Democrats.
Detroit is at the top of the list. Can you really make the claim that the financial depression there is the fault of the mayor alone and not, say the auto industry?
I am not saying that the mayors are not to blame in some cases-but your logic is flawed when you neglect to mention that most cities-rich and poor-have democrats as mayors.
It doesn't matter how much the mayor makes. There is no money to pay him. This is a sensationalized story. The employees will get all their pay as soon as the city finds the money. As soon as they agree on how to raise taxes then it will be resolved. The union catering politicians screwed the city. It's great to get all the votes but when the voters are unemployed the scheme has a tendency to fail.
Ed Schultz thinks the federal government is responsible for the city of Scranton. What planet is Ed from? Ed I know you couldn't hack it as a Republican but to cater to the basest base is ridiculous. The city needs to work out their own mess. The federal government shouldn't artificially subsidize the mess the unions made of Scranton. Even unions understand that they went too far throughout our nation. Unions have to have a symbiotic relationships like a clown fish and sea anemone, not an intestine and tapeworm. The host needs to prosper from the relationship not die.
@Scomata
Thats a very selective and convenient set of facts.... you might be able to produce a few cities controlled by dems that have high poverty.... but you can produce information on all whole states including cities that have record poverty that have never left republican control... Mississippi is a prime example.... the most conservative state yet has the highest poverty rate than any in the nation..... in conclusion poverty isn't party exclusive unless u present it that way.... those are the complete facts
Where is the proof you terrified righties have about unions having a damn thing to do with this? Guess what, a union (ooooo spooky, hope none of you peed yourselves) worker making $60,000 a year spends most of that in the local neighborhood. A rich dickweed like Rmoney doesn't even know where his offshore investments are if you can believe that... It certainly isn't helping out the mom&pops store down the street.
All of your ridiculous faux news talking points prove is that you guys don't know a damn thing about how a city, state, or national economy works.
Rod_Father: Obviously, you do not understand economics. When a city is floundering like Scranton, you don't CUT taxes...you increase taxes so that you can raise money to pay your deficits. This is the reason why we're having such a fight in our own government....the Republicans can't seem to understand that in order to pay the deficit (which goes up yearly due to the cost of living going up), you have to raise taxes. And, if ex-President Bush had raised taxes to pay for his two wars....we wouldn't be in the dire situation we're in now. Just my opinion.....
amazing how a worker making 40-70 thousand can sink a company when the executives making millions have nothing to do with the fall-out. we are spoiled and time to cut SS, medicare, holiday and vacation pay to show how it was back when working class fought for their rights.
Romney is very successful. Buffett is even more successful. You got a problem with that? You one of those guys that cringes when someone brings up American exceptionalism?
Baming any one group over another for this problem is gettin gus no where and is counter-productive. I understand that themayor cut his own pay as well (and if he had not --there certainly would be "hell to pay"). The city council did not want to raise taxes --understanfing -- but not very pratical under the situation. Paying the workers minimum wage might save the city some cash for a short while -but does not solve the problem -- If these same workers were paying over 20%in various taxes (on say a salary of $40K a year --which is not a fotune) are now being paid minimum wage -- the tax base has just gone down by over 65%! -(after all are not these same workers also taxpayers and customers of local business and services? There is no single answer to this problem -- but it most certainly is not to cut the wages of the majority of actaul taxpayers and cut the taxes of the richest corporations and indiviuals. Yes, if i make $25 million and paid 25% taxes I paid 5 million in taxes -- alot of money? Sure -- but if you cut that numner in half -- cut the wages of the pooerest workers and cut the work focirce by a 1/3 == where are you getting the money? More peole making a decent wage and paying taxes and buying proudcusts and services is what makes any economy grow -- not cuttug the income of the majority of tax payers , increasing an undercalss of poor (who can ot buy things or pay taxes) and cutting the taxes a of the wealthest who do not make up for the lost of produscrs and service no longer being paid for by yhe now unempoyed! We have tried giving the rich and big business tax cuts for over a decade now 00 We see what the results are --did not work out -- where are te jobs? A groew (by the way during the 1950's the rich paid over 80% in taxes -- and the economy was growing. Tajung job over seas and cutting the taxes of the wealthest has been a failed experinece over the last few decades. More people making dccnet pay is the only way to fix this problem -- not cutting workers pay and increasing corporate (untaxes) profits. Simply math.
Sandrich: I like your idea of cutting the Defense budget....maybe you can ask Romney why he intends to RAISE the defense budget by 4% at the cost of other important programs like education, public safety, infrastructure.
My God, people. Please take a moment from cutting each other's throats by asking just one question.
Who has the bulk of the money in this country? Banks, Wall Street and the large corporations.
Always, follow the money.
We bought our home in December of 2008 for $120,000 (built in 2005 and once sold for over $200,000 during the Bush years, what an F'ing joke), recent assessment $89,000 and projected to go under $80,000 in 2013.
Those living in homes valued over $300,000 have lost almost no value in that time - total attack on the Middle Class. Number of homes valued over $300,000 here in Tucson, AZ. is paltry, number of homes valued under $100,000 is the vast majority. You attack the poor and middle class and you pay big time when it comes to tax revenue.
I love my new lower taxes - but once you check into the hotel Tucson, you can never leave. Our home values were a staple of our ability to move up the social ladder, now the government has taken the ladder and left us clinging to the rain gutters (damn, we didn't even get rain gutters on our home). AZ is a GOP run/style government regardless of which party happens to be in office at the time.
Class Warfare isn't a war - it's a slaughter.
Scomata: There was an interesting article this past Sunday in the L.A.Times about the rich and how they became that way....statistics show that most of the millionaire/billionaires in this country did NOT make their money by working hard for it...a higher percentage got the money from family ties. I'm not saying that some of the 1% didn't actually earn their own money.....that's great and I applaud them....but statistics do indicate the most of the richest people in the U.S. got their money from inheriting it from their families....the same families that probably did all the work to make it many years previously. I wish I had kept the article so I could give you the link to it, but I didn't. I was just kind of blown away when I read it....it was extremely interesting.
Nobody paid that much. There were so many loopholes a whale could swim through it. The capital gains tax was a lot lower. The economy was destroyed by the social engineering by politicians. Bill Clinton with broad base support by both parties made it easier for banks to bundle housing loans and sell to third parties using derivatives. AIG insured the derivatives given essentially junk paper AAA ratings. AIG could only pay less then 1% so when the ponzi scheme failed the economy collapsed.
When Americans have their own money to invest the world is better. When the government spends our money they cater to the most votes sinking the private sector creating a Greece scenario.
Yeah I do have a problem.
I can see the economy as a interlinked system of supply and demand - a system guys like Romney do nothing to contribute to and quite a bit of harm to. When you're raising a field of crops and something pops up in the middle sucking up 1000x the resources without contributing anything, you got yourself a weed - guys like Romney are weeds.... They divert the flow of money and resources away from the rest of us, they contribute nothing, and in the end when you got no crops and just weeds the entire field withers and burns to the dirt.
Without tens of millions more good paying middle class jobs being created, and without a much larger tax base (minimum wage jobs will never provide this) we are screwed as a country.
And as far as the exceptionalism goes, I believe in being honest. USA is generally about 40th in the world now, not something to be proud of - and denial sure as hell won't fix that.
Patrick demarco:
Obviously you know nothing about taxes. It is true, there was a time when those with taxable income over $100,000 per year paid 90% in Federal Income taxes. Ask any CPA, they can tell you. We have tax law books in our library that show those rates. Capital gains taxes are at their lowest TODAY, not years ago.
If you're going to criticize, at least have the decency to get your facts straight.
Wavesofgrain 2.63
You said:
Well, it's really only one problem because democrat leadership and public unions are just two sides of the same coin. They work together to steal from the public treasury.
Romeny and Bain have saved hundreds of thousands of jobs. When Bain takes over the company is on life support. Romney works his magic and the company is viable again. Knightofdespair you can call Romney the magic man. Don't succumb to your anger and let Romney into your life. You are right about America losing exceptionalism. Stand up on your own two feet, send back the disability check and become an entrepreneur. You can do it. It's America. Just act like an immigrant and be grateful to be here and except no government assistance and you will even surprise yourself. Good luck knightofdespair
While all of us "everyday Joe's" are blaming each other and fighting over the crumbs, the fat cat politicians, big corporate CEO's, Wall Streeters and bankers are just watching us all, while counting their winnings and laughing, all the way to the, well, bank.
They didn't save a single job, they saved themselves a slice of someone else's pension and profits.
Just Wrong never did I say capital gains tax were lower than today in the 1950's. They were much lower in comparison to the income tax.
Maybe you should follow your own advice. If you actually think the few millionaires of the 50's were paying 80% taxes you are a naive puppy.
Politicians are supposed to serve the public also, is the mayor getting cut to minimum wage as well? He is after all a public servant is he not?
lee936758:
Posting the pay of union presidents is foolish! You just exposed the fact that they make about TWO TO FIVE PERCENT OF WHAT CEO'S MAKE!!!!!!!!!
MOST CEO'S MAKE THE SAME AS RICHARD TRUMKA IN LESS THAN A WEEK YOU IDIOT!!!!!!!
Boy, they must really work hard!?!?!?!
If they didn't invest in the business and put in their hard work and time to get the business off the ground, they have NO RIGHT to make that much.
NOBODY is worth that much... unless you are willing to pay the lowest rate at about 50k.
They have $5000 in their checking account. I don't think anyone is getting paid. One side wants to raise property tax by78% over the next few years. And another side wants to raise county sales tax by1% but this will require state approval. The workers getting minimum wage will receive full back pay as soon as the debt crisis is resolved so the headline misleads people to think that it is a permanent pay cut. It is a pay cut but the workers are owed fully. The city doesn't want to borrow money excessively until they figure out their revenue stream.
Hey, where's all that money they are getting from filming "The Office"?
Maybe Ricky Gervais could swoop in and help. Start filming IN Scranton Ricky, not just show some screen shots during the title screens and during that horrible, brain-invasive theme song!!.
I'm Just Sayin'....
Um...... Right...... There is NO revenue stream in Scranton, none.... Even the tourism board is in a tizzy b/c the bad press will kill the little they were getting. Get paid back with what exactly??
Property taxes are all they have.
Maybe you can help out and have a catered party or 2 there.... LMAO!!!
ScoMata1964
Yeah, and the states with the highest poverty levels have Republican leadership (southern and appalachia regions), what was your point again?
Shaun, if they spent YEARS working "24/7" for little or NO money, that means SOMEONE ELSE must have been supporting them during that time. A spouse, a parent, the government. No one - I mean NO ONE - survives on NOTHING for years. They had a benefactor. Well guess what? Not everyone has a benefactor. It's like those ridiculous celebrity stories of the "think I can" actor who drove cross country to "make it" with 50 cents in his/her pocket. My a$$.
And guess what repubs? Hate to burst your reality bubble… but you know those FREE public educations many of you got growing up? That's "socialism." Those were "entitlements/benefits." That's right. Just like those public highways you drive your gas guzzlers on. See how that works?
Patrick Demarco, did you really just utter that???? LOL!!!!
Oops, should have written 'accept'. But yeah that was me. Just trying to give knightofdespair a pep talk. Pull himself up by the bootstraps and get off the government teat. No better feeling of self-reliance and you know, you blame people less for your flaws and you accept your short comings better. You become less angry.
@Didi
"I like your idea of cutting the Defense budget....maybe you can ask Romney why he intends to RAISEthe defense budget by 4% at the cost of other important programs like education, public safety, infrastructure."
Mitt Romney is a Mormon, the Mormon Temple is in Utah. Can you guess which state relies heavily on Defense contracts?
Feel free to look it up starting with Utah State Gov's own site:
http://business.utah.gov/partners/defense-alliance/
Patrick Demarco, I wasn't responding to your misuse of accept/except. I was laughing at the notion of immigrants "being grateful" and accepting "no handouts." First of all, the person you are speaking to, is NOT (I presume) an immigrant. Secondly, what has me LOL-ing is the "accept nothing" part. Better (and more accurate) advice would be to suggest he leave the country, become a citizen elsewhere, come back as an "immigrant" (and illegal at that - even better); then he will qualify for housing, food, clothes, medicine, free tuition, you name it! There's a word a lot of you I-did-it-on-my-own-back-in-the-day types (an no, you did NOT do it all on your own) should look up. It's the word "nihilism." It's what happens when people lose all hope.
No, I didn't think you were, I just noticed it when you pasted it. Anyway we pay taxes for education, roads, help people when they are down, defense, etc. Unfortunately some people never stop taking. Immigrants come to this country and sacrifice to realize their dreams. Even the illegals do this and most return to their countries rich by their standards. Americans don't go to 13 years of school to work three jobs a day as a dishwasher, fruit picker and ditch digger.
People shouldn't be bitter because someone is more successful. Success can be measured in many ways. But job creators are important and deserve the money they create for themselves.
" ... They risked their own capital and time. ... "
Now there is a good Conservative for you. Has his priorities straight. Yep. Their "capital and time" are worth more then the lives of the people who serve and protect them. Worth a whole lot more.
More then the people who actually do the work. More then those that actually make the goods that they sell. More then anyone else. Why? Because they have money. So they are better then anyone else. So they deserve more then anyone else. So they have more rights then anyone else. So they should pay less in taxes then anyone else. So they should have more say then anyone else.
@!$%# that @!$%#.
Arrogant, ignorant @!$%#.
" ... But job creators are important and deserve the money they create for themselves. ... "
LOL. There's that "job creators" bull@!$%# myth again. Where are the jobs that these SPECIAL are creating? Where? I don't see any. Oh that's right. It's Obamas fault that they are not creating any. Sorry. I forgot.
And yet these holy "job creators" are raking in record profits. Some of then in the 10's of billions of dollars. And the jobs that they are creating? Not so much. And then paying little or no taxes on those billions of dollars. Some of them even getting more back then they paid in. No that's fair.
Or like that poor, poor CEO of Apple. He only earned $900,000 last year. Don't you just feel his pain? And Obama and the Liberals want him to pay more in taxes. Now don't you REALLY feel his pain? Oh, and then there is the small fact that they game him over $400 million in stock options. $400 MILLION freaking dollars in stock options for 1 year! Now DO YOU REALLY FEEL HIS PAIN? How dare the President and those damned Liberals want to take his hard earned money away from him in higher taxes. HOW WILL HE FEED HIS CHILDREN? HOW?
So how many jobs has this HOLY "job creator" created. How many has HE, not Apple, created? Would you like to guess? How many jobs will he create with that $400 MILLION next year? Ok, so he wont that $400 MILLION for 5 years. How many jobs will he create with it then?
None. That's how many this HOLY "job creator" will create. NONE!
So what other bull@!$%# lies would you like us to swallow?
"job creators", yea right.
Idiot.
Isn[t it amazing how when the taxpayers need a sacrifice from liberal unions it is called theft from the firefighters, teachers, etc who earned this money. These same liberal politicians think nothing of taking the hard earned treasure of the producers in this country! They even call these individuals "greedy" and more than able to pay these ridiculous tax rates! Amazing, if you are union it is called theft if you try to reduce costs and if you are non-union and a producer you are greedy if you don't want your entire paycheck going to these same union thugs! Plus, the liberals are creating a permanent non-working class which will take from the "1%ers" and the firemen, teachers, etc.... We will all have to sacrifice to get this country back to producing and not just taking! This does not only mean taxing the rich!
I'm an idiot. Where do jobs come from then, please tell? The government? You make me sick? Suck all the blood out of Americans so you can live, disgraceful. How much of other people's money do you want. You certainly don't pay income taxes but you feel 35% is not enough from hard working Americans. You resent the fact that a young kid can create a company and become one of the richest persons in the world. You feel you deserve the fruit of his labor. You only think the government creates jobs. You look at someone like Gates and think you could have brought affordable computers to the masses. You think given a chance you could have been rich. You had your chance and you still do but not sucking on the teat of the government, that just make you dependent like a meth addict. Buy a piece of equipment, hire some people and succeed. Or stop spending all your money and credit on wants and save and invest. But no you want something for nothing and don't even want to understand free enterprise even though every facet of your life is surrounded by it.
If you are so jealous of the CEO's why don't you apply. It should be a no brainer with your condescending attitude. Maybe go to Apple and tell them you will do the job for half the money and actually work hard. But no it is always someone else's fault never yours.
You make me sad, every single one of your posts just illustrates you know virtually nothing about economics - especially the kind of economics that it takes to run a city, state, or country.
Jobs come from demand, when workers make nothing in wages they buy nothing but the barest of necessities. Giving some rich @!$%# like Romney does nothing to help the local economy. He buys the same amount of gas, toilet paper, paint, tires, and food on $2 million a year as he would on $200 million a year. All that giving people like this tax cuts means is that $198 million goes back in the bank to be used as leverage to screw the working class and $198 million that didn't go out as wages or taxes that the public is expected to pay on minimum wage. You think it matters if the middle class is taxed at 35% or 50%? They make such a little share of overall income that it doesn't affect the overall annual revenue of the country at all. The top 10% and especially the top 2% is where all of the actual income is at, and they pay half the taxes of the middle class if they even pay any at all.
You need to go back to school, and this time please don't waste the rest of our money by not paying attention.
So you are saying when I go back to school I shouldn't read the thoughts of Simpson and Bowles. Or listen to the thoughts of Rhodes Scholar Bill Clinton. Instead I should listen to your rants, no thanks. Your only accomplishment is tenure. Based on your economics lecture I hope you are a history professor.
Deadbeat governments. Pay up or else, and we don't care if you don't have the money.
ust so you know.. Hey guys if you're going to make this a republican bashing thread...
Christopher Doherty
Political party
Democratic
Um, the only one who's bringing up political party seems to be you.
Bart: See the article and see other comments.
Just so you can continue to deny, Ted, there's much to bash about RepugnantCON tactics and ideology.
The government represents the taxpayers. The community is devasted by the great recession. The taxpayers do not have the money to spare, you cannot get blood out of a turnip. I think Scranton will end up filing Chapter 9.
Bruce, scranton may indeed file bankruptcy for protection, but regardless what you think the taxpayers can afford to pay the bill or at least cut back on their expectations for what they want the city to provide. Just check out scrantons census data vs their debt to see that it can be done if applied fairly across the board.
Democrat mayor and council? Was there no room for conservative ideas? Or did the cosrvatives just minimize their losses and leave town when they were told they weren't allowed on the bus? Too many left turns.
Typical liberal / union mentality, if we cant get you to pay us, we'll sue you for it. The only one's who will end up with the money are the scumbag lawyers.
How about the union helping their town? Maybe by dipping into their strike fund to get their members over the hump?? I don't see the union trying to help. they only care about them self's and not looking at the bigger picture that if the town is making money then they are making money. If they raise the taxes the union members will also have to pay that higher tax too, how does that help them?
Riddle me this...My husband is a long haul truck driver. He just delivered a load of solid brass handrails for the outside of a new Federal COurthouse in California. Tell me why when 1st they all ready had a perfectly good courthouse but decided it was inconvient and wanted a new one like a a block away. Tell me why they feel that they need and can AFFORD SOLID BRASS handrails????????????? Is it a joke on the citizens of this country????????? Govrenment outrageous spending, spending, spending!!!! $500 hammers, $1,000 toliets!!! In an Oregon building they put in marble floors then covered it all with carpet. Why does any state or federal bulding need MAHOGANY conference tables??? WASTE, OVER SPENDING ON UNECESSARY AND WAY OVERPRICED GOODS!!!! Fire the officials that do this crap!!!!!!
A lot of you people commenting are accusing the unions workers etc. I would like to make a different case. Politician greed, corruption and bungling. Those pension benefits had to be funded, correct. Were they? Most likely not. I would bet year after year the mayor and city council put off putting any cash into those pension funds. In effect they ran a huge ponzi scheme. Why didn't they put any cash aside for the city's obligation? There are several reasons. One, stupidity and bungling. Maybe they did not know how to manage money. Two, greed. In order to put cash in those pensions they would have had to raise taxes/fees and operate the city in a fiscally proper manor. In other words actually do the job they were paid to do. Now that means telling the public the bad news every now and then. But they put their own self interests and ahead of the publics interests. Politicians that raise taxes do not get re-elected. So to keep their job and income they lied,cooked the books, and ran a ponzi scheme. How about corruption? If you fully fund the pensions there is less money for cronyism, nepotism, patronage, and contracts for political contributors.
so how much of the problem is from Pensions?
SMDH... NO revenue stream from Scranton PA.... I feel sorry for all's plight. It's a downward, never-ending spiral there... Move to Wilkes-Barre, or Allentown with the Latino's.. LOL!!!...
If all the city workers are being cut to minimum wage they must have cut all the city politicians pay and benefits to the same levels already....right?
Bwahahaha I crack myself up.
Well, I don't know about all, but I know the Mayor cut his pay to minimum wage as well... It was the responsible thing to do I think. Hopefully the City Council will finally stop ignoring the issue and work with him instead of barring him from making cuts that could turn things around for the city.
Yes you do :)
Excellent point, but no. And it's nothing to laugh about - particularly for people who's houses catch fire in that city.
The town has been run by democrats for 50 years. They created the mess, not the republicans. It shows that high taxing, and over spending really does. I have to live within my means, so should gov't.
les54tom... what a slap in the face to our protective services if you think a city employee will let a house in the city burn just because they are getting minimum wage. You must be one greedy liberal.
It's the same scenario throughout the country. The politicians catered to the large voter groups and the rest of the people didn't care or think about it. Now that the promises have to be met the people that didn't care are realizing they should have. Unfortunately it is too late. The people of Scranton will see a property tax hike of 78% over the next three years just like the mayor is calling for. I seriously doubt the 1% county sales tax that the council is calling for will fly. You made your bed now lie in it.
" ... You must be one greedy liberal. ... "
Or maybe one ignorant conservative? That would be my guess.
Sorry, George, but I have seen alot more ignorant liberals lately. It is getting more and more obvious each day that something must be done to end the systemic raping of our taxpayers in this country. Government has not incentive to become more efficient and the non-producing elements of our society are demanding more every day! Can you believe that the government is paying for free cell phones for welfare, food stamp, and other goverment benefit recipients?! What part of our lives will we not have to depend on "Big Brother" to keep us on the "straight and narrow" and be totally dictated to in the very near future?
Glad I don't have any flamable property in Scranton, PA...
I'm glad I don't have any living relatives in Scranton, PA
I was born and raised in Scranton. My Mom who is on a fixed income still lives there. Doherty wants to raise taxes by 78%. A good portion of the population in Scranton lives on fixed incomes. There are no jobs there and tons of houses on the market. It is a big mess and God help the next Mayor that gets in there. They will never be able to dig themselves out of the Crater that the city is in. Where is all the tax dollars going? Scranton can't even pay the fuel bills.
It sounds like the Utopian Public Union Pay/Benefits/Pensions have sucked the town dry. Make Pennsylvania a Right To Work state and let the cities, funded by the sucked-dry taxpayers, hire NON-union employees.
Hmm, I wonder what an $8/hr guy with a gun and a shield could do to supplement his pay ...
Probably go "bust" some drug dealers on their own time.
The train wreck that started in late 2006 is still crashing six years later. Bring back the Glass Steagall Act for starters. Then we will go from there.
Make banks into public utilities so the is transparency.
That's fine, so long as ALL Scranton's workers are paid minimum wage. That includes the mayor and his staff, and all the other city bureaucrats.
UPDATE: Apparently these cuts do include the mayor and everyone else. Scranton literally has no money. It doesn't matter what the court orders, there's nothing to pay these people with.
I hope the residents of Scranton like hauling their own garbage to the dump and own guns to protect themselves because I wouldn't even get out of bed for minimum wage. You can't live on $15,080 a year; those jobs are now a waste of time better spent looking for new employment outside Scranton.
This is a huge scam to try and screw the city workers out of unemployment by forcing them to quit instead of just laying them off.
Apparently it's not about screwing the workers. According to the Huffington Post, the idea is to implement the minimum wage cuts to pressure the council to sort out the budget, then back-pay the workers. Kind of the same thing Arnold tried in California. The problem is many of the workers don't have enough money to tide them over until then.
Sell off city properties, borrow it and fund it with bonds, they have a contractual obligation, period.
<sarcasm>That being the case, it sure makes sense for the unions to sue.</sarcasm>
Maybe now they will the what the point of taxes is.
mm209...
Oh the inhumanity of not having city supplied garbage removal....
My city doesn't provide that service and we still have 2 private sector trash haulers to choose from + a local landfill (government approved facility) for non hazardess waste) that will take trash at so much/lb with a minimum charge.
mm209, Ding ding ding. EXACTLY.
Of course management should take the same cuts....however, the city needs to lay off most of the employees, and keep the remaining few on full salary, as institutional memory. The simple truth is that we need very few public sector employees, and the days of above-market salary, paid health care benefits, and retirement are history.
I would argue that being the result of intimidation, coercion, and thuggery, that union contracts are invalid to begin with, since they were not freely entered into by the employer. Take the example of essential employees, with no-strike contract clauses, such as cops. They strike, and demand that their breach of the no-strike clause be ignored as a condition of ending the strike.
People serve in law enforcement in sworn positions, on volunteer basis, in LA, Eureka CA, and various sheriff's departments. Eureka reportedly has 5 volunteer cops for every salaried cop. America has a huge baby-boom generation nearing, or in retirement age; many, like myself, with decades of experience, who would happily volunteer to provide needed services, if we didn't have to deal with the hostility of public sector unions and their supporters, who would fight such a trend tooth and nail. A combination of volunteerism, increased charitable deductions, and alliances with faith-based institutions are needed to meet legitimate public needs.
Dwight Schrute needs to take over the city and get the ship righted.
He'd turn the entire town into one industrial beet farm.
One man should never be allowed to take over a city. Oh wait, maybe you got that idea from Michigan RepugnantCONs, because they already do.
Perhaps Scranton could get some money from our government. Oh wait, our government just sent 3 billion to Israel and then approved an additional 600 million for Israel's missile defense system. All that money, despite the fact that Israel is just doing fine economically. They are leaders in all kinds of fields, just ask them, their supporters brag about it all the time.
Don't forget the missile defense shield in Australia either. A nation that actively recruits from our active military offering a rank bump, pay bump and stronger economy.
Or the Billions we give Egypt...and Pakistan...and...and...and...were doomed.
You're bitching about peanuts. You want to talk about government spending gone wild, just look at the $122B (yes, that's billion) we're on track to dump this year into the sinkhole commonly known as the war in Afghanistan.
Bring our troops home - save their lives, save the country's money - that should be a slam dunk. There might even be a little cash left over to help out poor Scranton and its contract ignoring mayor.
nonsense. Police have one of the most safest jobs in the country. Farmers and fishermen are more likely to be killed only around 40 have dies on duty this year and only about half killed by criminals. My boss DID pull people in his office and cut pay by 25% for a quarter. You might not be happy about it bye $7.25 is better than unemployment. Would you rather have $290 a week and health care of $300 a week and no health care.. Shut up and sit down..
Agree with Ralph, JCpines and TiredofLies. specially the last point. Get the heck out of Iraq and Afghan. We still have 20,000 embassy, and contractors in the worlds largest embassy building we just built in Iraq. Get those people out of there. When the troops leave Iraq and Afghan, the massive Navy and AirForce support in the region can be slimmed and brought home too !
This is why our country is going down the toilet, people like you telling everyone to just accept wages that don't come close to paying the bills.
This city had money at some point, where did it go? Oh right, some guy like Rmoney took 90% of it and skipped town, the rest can all eat cat food apparently and they better not complain or you might get your feelings hurt.
Unfortunately, while I agree to bringing troops home, they would most likely add to the already overwhelming ranks of the unemployed.
Someone suggested 'bring the troops home'. Are you kidding? Don't some of you Americans get it?
With the highest respect for those who serve in the U.S.A. Military; thanks to your past and present Politicians it has become a very lucrative money making Industry. For starters; if they brought all their troops home just do some basic mathematics. Would the unemployment rate not go through the roof? Think about it.
Secondly, for those who defend Unions and their mentality take a long good look at China and Japan, who don't have them. Their lists of accomplishments in the last century far outweigh those of the U.S.A. They have become two of the world's leading industrialists while the U.S.A. flounders, have they not? Need I say more.
GOOD LUCK!
Chukzul: You would be right if guys like the idiot running CalTrans is allowed to do what he wants. He gave a $1.4 billion bridge building contract to a Chinese company who will import the crew, the steel and the equipment. Unemployed Americans can sit on the wall and watch em build the bridge. IF you and the rest of the folks want to sit on the wall and file unemployment claims and cry about it go ahead. But I think gubmint employees who do these things need to be labelled as traitors and treated accordingly. Paying military people to be in foreign countries engaged in dumb wars is not a jobs program. Don't even start thinking it.
Yeah because they don't hesitate to make their air look like vomit and their 8 year olds work 12 hours a day. Winning plan right there, way to build the bridge of prosperity to the future.
Don't forget most corporations have been making double digit year over year profits since the 1970's and even now are sitting on trillions that could easily be put to work in our country if our unpatriotic and greedy executives didn't value their stolen loot over the country.
Millions out of work and trillions parked in overseas banks because of greed.
" ... You might not be happy about it bye $7.25 is better than unemployment. ... "
Lol. A bit clueless there aren't you? In my state you get 80% of what you earned in your highest earnings quarter. Or a minimum amount. Whichever is greater. Up to a maximum amount. Which ever is smaller. Neither of which are anywhere near Federal minimum wage.
I made $12 an hour working. My wife made 30%+ more then that on unemployment.
A Fire Fighter making minimum wage? A Police Officer making minimum wage? And you are all right with this? Wow.
No, I really, REALLY mean it. WOW!!!!!!
That's @!$%#ing insane. @!$%#ING INSANE!!!
Scranton PA has just become the 7-Eleven of US cities.
Its the republican plan for all of us, gut all the good jobs, convince all the wage slobs to take minimum or less, and slash taxes on the only guys in the country who actually have any real income.
They took the country back all right, back to the middle ages.
If they broke the law prosecute them.
You are a very jealous man. I bet your one of the People like me that almost pay no taxes. you do know that 80% of the country pays less than 15% they need to raise their taxes it does nothing to stimulate the economy that has be a established fact so lets raise the taxes on every one. Or are you just greedy and want to starve the homeless child. I say we need the 1950's tax structure. We need to raise the gas tax from 18 cents to 3-4 dollars a gallon. that will make us the most prosperous country and we will have no homeless.
We don't need an Obama we need another Jimmy Carter He Created 10 million jobs in 4 years and had one of the greatest economy's in history because of it.
They should tax any one making more than 250K by 90% that will fix every thing in the country. it is the democrat way.
Then cut your bills that is not hard.
90% taxes would mean a lot less stupid risks by wall street designed to grab a quick few million and cash out at 0-15% taxes they have now. It would mean CEOs actually thinking about whether it is worth an extra 1 million for themselves if it means 9 million going back to the government, vs investing into new products or paying American workers a good living wage to make something here in the USA. It discourages short term high risk gambling and encourages long term slow growth like most businesses thrived under during our golden age. SOMEONE has to pay the taxes, only retards think that is the people who don't have any money at all.
I forget, is living 11 people to an apartment and driving a 25 year old vehicle the American dream or the illegal immigrants necessity? Why do you think an American should even consider living this kind of lifestyle, particularly since most of them are working more hours and have a higher productivity than any generation before them? Corporate profits are sky high, money supply is higher than ever, SOMEONE is making a ton of profits so why shouldn't the hard working American share in some of that?
If their dream is living in the gutter then they should live their. I also thing that any one making more than 50K should pay 50% in federal taxes and every one that makes less should pay 30%. That way we can be the greatest in the world. If we do this we can live like we did in the 50's
For those wondering, yes the cuts to salaries to minimum wage includes the mayor's pay.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/05/scranton-minimum-wage-city-workers-mayor-chris-doherty_n_1652271.html
What the?!?! That article has a picture of Dwight Schrute....lmao...I guess that's what everyone thinks of when they think of Scranton.
Good article. Looks like the Huffington Post has much better reporters than msnbc (well, so does a school newsletter, for that matter).
This has been the plan from bo at the very first.. One might stop the billions being spent on the illegal for one...90 some billion each year paying for these leeches. BUT, they are votes for bo..
You have to stop the Cadillac union retirements..These are killing each and every state. Unions used to be a good thing but today NOT..
The way some of you talk, I would love to see how you run your household...You can't spend what you don't have...Cut up the credit cards and learn to budget..
The States have to do the same...Follow Wisconsin's plan.. That Governor stopped it, turned it around. That was one great move!!!
Sounds like Scranton is headed to open riots. What police force will work for minimum wage? Who will the mayor call when there is an emergency? 911 is now fee-for-service.
Any police force worth having will work for minimum wage until the city gets back on his feet. If they are too stupid or they don't care enough about police work to stay then the city will be even better off without them!. These are tough times folks, pitch in and fight though it or get out of the way.
Does that mean, when there's an emergency, and someone calls 911....that they have to pre-pay over the phone with a credit/debit card, before the actual 911 operator comes on the line?
Police will work for minimum wage because they care about police work? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
Unfortunately, it is only middle and lower class people that feel a responsibility to pitch in. Those that can afford to pitch in complain if they have to pay the same percentage of tax as those with less money. Meanwhile, how is a firefighter with two kids to support supposed to live on minimum wage?
"Any police force worth having will work for minimum wage until the city gets back on his feet. If they are too stupid or they don't care enough about police work to stay then the city will be even better off without them!. These are tough times folks, pitch in and fight though it or get out of the way".
What I suppose will happen is that fire will be a pay for spray operation and if you don't pay they don't spray (recent example was in Tennessee when a house was allowed to burn down). The police has ties to crime in Scranton and it is not lost on a guy making minimum wage trying to support himself and family that crime does in fact pay. I foresee corruption and grift ahead for Scranton.
What could a guy on minimum wage with a gun and a badge do to supplement his salary?
For the answer to that, just look south of the border ...
Ted-803281
Any police force worth having will work for minimum wage until the city gets back on his feet. If they are too stupid or they don't care enough about police work to stay then the city will be even better off without them!. These are tough times folks, pitch in and fight though it or get out of the way.
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And... just to show his unwavering support for all that is good, holy, & Republican, Ted will be visiting his firms Human Resources office to have his pay lowered to $7.25 / hour for the duration of the Scranton pay cuts. Come on people !!! Let's ALL pitch in and demand our wages be lowered !!!!!
@Denver
Are you serious!!!! How frigging naive are you? And just how does a person support a family, much less himself, on minimum wage? Sorry, but principles, however good, don't make for good eating. My guess is that they are going to take their experience and training to some other city that appreciates their service more than giving out empty promises.
Chuckzul: I think Denver was just being facetious.
Letusreason is an idiot. Would he risk his life for others for minimum wage, while your house is being forclosed on? I doubt it.
Some people actually understand the need to work together to solve problems, while others, like yourself would run to the unemployment line.
I second Ted's comment.
Hard to work together when your family & 5 kids are being forced to live on the street.
try telling the bank that Ted, you would be picking up your belonging on the front lawn working for that wage.
but but i was try to work with the mayor to save the city bahaaaaaaaaaaa!
where do peaple like you come from?
It's kind of interesting how a situation like this makes people come out in full force with the sudden recognition that the minimum wage is in no way livable. What? It's not livable for the 'civil servant'? But the single mom, slinging hash... well screw her, right? There are many, many, many, MANY people earning minimum - their whole lives! Nope, they don't sit in boardrooms scratching their pampered a$$. They do ACTUAL WORK. And they die with nothing. And the wannabe-rich American-dream-lie-believing righties stand around with misspelled "demonstration signs" that jeer "Get a Job" and such other religious warmth, living with the false illusion that they "earned" anything, rather than the truth - they were just given slightly larger cages so they do not realize they too are slaves.
I have a feeling the mayor had better not need a police officer or fireman anytime soon, I have feeling his house is gonna burn. But then the city workers need some funtime and recreation!!!
I was feeling for the residents, as you 'get what you pay for'. But maybe what you're saying has more to do with Karma...'don't unto others, that which you sure in hell don't want them to do unto you'.
We have way too much emergency equipment that sits idle. The cost to maintain all of this is staggering. We simply can not keep doing this. The same for most of our emergency personnel. Do we really need SWAT teams? Of course not.
Once again,management screws up and workers take the fall. These people have families to feed and mortgages to pay. Hope the mayor is leading by example and cutting his own salary as well as his entire staff to $7.25/hr. Lets see him live on that. Chris Christie over in Jersey must be drooling over this. Hmmmm.
If the city has no money, how exactly do you propose they pay those people? It's a question of logic so I'll wait for you to catch up.
This is what happens when you have democratic liberals controlling a city or state. If it wasn't because of the current mayor it must of been a previous one. If Obama stays in power, it's only a matter of time before the whole country is like this.
I agree with Demar. If there's no money, what are they supposed to do? And the Mayor was warning the city and the City Council about this for a VERY long time. THE City Council chose to ignore it and keep spending money like they won the lottery. According to them Scranton doesn't have any financial problems... And yet it only has $ 5,000 in the bank. Were they out of their minds or did their ego's just not allow them to work with the Mayor on such a major issue?
The worst part to me is that they were warned repeatedly that this was going to happen. They were warned when they put together the last budget (As ridiculous as it was), they were warned several times between then and now, they were warned over the last several years... The Mayor has been attempting to work with them for YEARS to trim some of the fat and get Scranton to a point where it would be sustainable. The City Council preferred to just keep borrowing money and ignoring his warnings. So, now we're where we are and people should be blaming the incompetence of City Council honestly.
I feel that situations like this are all in Obamas plans. The only way to create a dictatorship is to create civil unrest and what better way to do that than break the country.
Demar, if the city has no money mabey the mayor is completely inept.
Last month mitt raised 121 million dollars towards his effort to BUY the president seat. In the mean time we have children starving to death. That is what this country has come to how sad. This problem is to big for one man to fix i am 52 and dont think it will happen in my life. Good luck to all you 20 somethings.
Hey Demar,with all due respect,I am way more than caught up here. Something is missing from this story. How could a mayor just allow his city to go broke? Blame it on unions? That's it? That's easy. Bad excuse. Piss poor excuse. First of all,I am a conservative. And no one despises higher taxes and government waste more than I do. In fact,I happen live in one of America's highest taxed communities. I hate high taxes. But I like where I live. And that means it costs money to live there. Everything costs more. For me,you and and of course every municipality. Its not just salaries. Things like vehicles, buildings and maintenance for example. Every stop sign,lamp post,manhole cover,traffic light and sidewalk that a city owns has to be maintained or replaced at some time. That costs money. And every year it costs more. And that money comes from taxes and fees. Its unavoidable. Sometimes,as hard as it is,taxes have to go up to maintain a city,its safety and quality of life. And yes,that includes paying the workers that provide essential services to a city that they also live and pay taxes in. If you like living there,you have to pay. It sucks,but that's how it is. He should have gone for a slight tax increase over the years to maintain the city and keep it running instead of letting it get to this point. Cut the waste in the budget (you would be amazed at how much waste there is in city government,and it is miles away from workers salaries being the main cause) Then re-open competitive bids for products and services that the city needs. That means right down to a box of paper clips and a roll of toilet paper. Also re-negotiating worker contracts for current and new hires. It wouldn't be painless. No matter what,taxes and fees would unfortunately have to go up until things in the city budget and the local economy stabilize. Workers would have to take a smaller raise,or none at all and contribute more to their benefits. The life of city vehicles and other equipment would have to be stretched. Some maintenance and non-essential services may have to be trimmed back. There are so many ways this ridiculous situation in Scranton could have been avoided. There isn't enough information this article to tell if he already tried these things but no matter what,he let his city run into the ground. Democrat, Republican,or Independent,there is no "logical" reason or excuse for this. Its just a disgrace. No matter how this mayor,the press or anyone here spins it,he has let his city down big time.
I am native to the Scranton area. I have lived here all my life. I have watched years of public city council meetings over the years on our public access television channel. I have seen how poorly the Mayor of Scranton has run the city. I have seen battles of the Council to fight for the citizens when the Mayor created fluffy high paying jobs that were not needed. There is and always has been corruption in the bidding processes for city contracts. It is certainly who you know.......and the council has always tried to stop it from occurring.....
I am guilty of not being up to speed on what is currently happening, as I have lost interest in this drama because for the life of me, I cannot understand why the citizens keep voting for a Mayor who has done nothing for Scranton except try to beautify the downtown area, always claiming it would attract new businesses to the area and bring new jobs..... It never did any of that and all the money he poured into is lost when it could have been used so much more wisely. He squandered money in so many areas of the city budget that I believe both he and the council are at fault..... Him for doing it and them for not finding a way to stop it at every turn. The Council's hands always seem to be tied... no matter what good they try to do...... the Mayor honestly does need to be put back in his place as Mayor, not sole Dictator of Scranton.
They are all to blame for the mess, regardless of political affiliation. Scranton has been distressed for a few decades, this is all true. It more than likely goes back farther than that.
I agree with Pete on his points every step of the way and the Mayor..... has failed at every turn. The citizens certainly failed as well in voting him back in when they know he is not the best leader for the city of Scranton. Scranton is actually primarily made up of an Irish, Polish and Italian ethnic base.
The local newspaper and it's only radio station are both monopolized by Irish key city players as I would call them....... The Italians have the seedy side of things when it comes to questions of Mafia or should I say Mafia like activity. Yes it does somewhat exist in the area.. We have all heard the rumors over the years but steer clear of crossing it's path.......
I would say the Irish are very predominant in politics in the city and I have always wondered if that is why he keeps getting re-elected....... I remember back to the days of Mayor McNulty and Jim Connors.....are you seeing the theme here??
So while everyone is calling this a democrat/republican issue...... I see it a little differently, and no I am not a racist at all. It is just the truth. This is an old coal mining town with old strong ethnic ties in its' community and frankly something so wonderful seems to be killing the very same thing people love about our area........ its uniqueness.
Maybe one day people will elect based on a person's qualifications for the job, not their last name.
I could write you a book but it doesn't put money in their bank account. I am not a political type person but maybe this will help people understand the mentality of the Scranton PA way of life and doing things........
Seriously...... THE OFFICE, is a perfect parody of the city of Scranton....... Michael and Mayor Doherty are one and the same....... complete, unqualified, blithering idiots.
As for a solution to the problem.... Pete's idea's are truly the only way to get out of the hole at this point...... but I can tell you this. I am a supervisor for a business that does an important type of business and I live on 10.30/hr. I cannot live on this money. I do not live in Scranton..... I drive 60 miles per day roundtrip to work and have numerous expensive medical conditions that I pay dearly for each month and I don't care how poor I am.......If I was still living there I would not be able to afford a tax increase. It is just very sad that there is no other way for them to resolve the issue because the Mayor made such poor decisions, the Council would not budge because they were bullied by the Mayor and in the end........it is the whole Community who loses because our elected officials could not work together and instead fell prey to the ugliness of POLITICS.
Scranton residents are not rich, some are barely middle class, most are poor or slightly above poverty level. I have yet to meet someone who has not had difficulties in some way or another based on the problems of the overall economies trickle down effects to the local communities.
Good city elected officials make smart, quality choices and see the present but prepare for the future as well and protect their citizens...... Scranton, you are the place I was born and I will always love you but I am embarrassed by your constant inability of not seeing the forest for the trees.
Get yourself together and take care of your citizens and stop fighting over nonsense and do you job. This economic crisis is not the time to play games of who wields more power......maybe the coal has been stripped from Northeastern PA's land but you don't have to strip the dignity of what citizen's it has left of their right to protection, safety from fire, local government functions and all other processes they are entitled to.........oh and food on their tables and a place to live because you can't grow up and cooperate with each other and make sacrifices where needed to get through this time.
GROW UP CITY COUNCIL, GROW UP DOHERTY, GROW UP CITIZENS, GROW UP CITY EMPLOYEES, SUCK IT UP AND MAKE IT WORK. SHOW THAT YOU CAN DO THIS AND PULL TOGETHER AND MAKE THE NEWS FOR BEING A SUCCESS RATHER THAN THE FAILURE.
A bit off topic here,but children starving to death?? Really?? In what country? Please... No one should starve to death in America. There is plenty of help. In my community I see plenty of children and adults on welfare... Uh,I mean public assistance and most of 'em looked pretty healthy and well fed to me. Some looked a little over-fed. On my dime no less. And how about that nice BMW/SUV they just hopped into...Can you really buy one of those with food stamps? That is what this country has come to.
Exactly right! The Mayor needs to bring himself and the City Council members (if Scranton has a city council) down to minimum wage. The people he's threatening with this are not sitting at a desk telling others what to do. They're hard working people who are out there every day.
Um. The minimum wage includes him and EVERYONE else! You should get a clue before you post. The mayor has been trying to fix this problem for a while but the unions refuses to take a cut in pay. Management is the problem the management of the unions that is.
Classic57, nice to know you post before reading the actual article. And Scranton, "we" the taxpayers of this nation WILL NOT be bailing you out! Another city destroyed by public service employee unions.
Just declare and go into bankruptcy. Bust up the union. Figure out a way to pay both the vendors that are due money as well as an appropriate salary and benefits for all the city workers. Public workers probably have to live with the reality that those dream benefits that are what sucking all the money out of the public sector will have to go and they'll have to join all the rest of the private sector and deal with either IRA or 401k as well as health insurance that the rest of the private sector has to live with too. These benefits should all be there, just not as generous as what they used to be. We also need to raise taxes across the board too.
People in the public sector, have you actually looked at your pay statement and your retirement benefits and can honestly say that what you have in there are not already better than a lot of private sector working citizens? And don't get me started with what union has done to our teachers. Far too often we have to fire or let go the best and the brightest teachers due to budget reasons and the union forced the seniority resulted in the US spending the MOST in the entire world and getting at best a middle of the pack result. Is that really wise and the way it should be?
Both the "extreme" democrats and republicans live in a world that is so far from reality. All out of reality benefits that requires heavy burden on your citizens isn't reality (democrats). All cuts and no benefits/services also doesn't serve everyone equally (republicans). What we really need are people who lives in the reality and in the middle who truly understands and lives with what is reality as our representatives. Not those that are delusional and can only see a reality that does not nor can not exists.
I am a facilities engineer for a public school and I make 40% less than my peers who graduated from college with the same degree I have. The only bright side to this is the pension I will get when I retire 20 years down the road. My benefits are on par with the private sector in terms of coverage. I know all those fat cat benefits and pay packages that everyone is always whining about doesnt exist where I am at.
There is a lot of anger over the benefits public workers get. AS a retired govt worker I will tell you it is a myth. I worked for 22 years for the govt. Fourteen of the years do not count because I was a seasonal with no benefits. When I did get statis and insurance I paid for it, I contributed to retirement. I had day surgery twice and each time it still cost me over 4,000.00 out of my pocket and I had the best insurance policy I could get. My "Retirement" is 89.00 a month. Just how am I an the govt tit? I loved my job and I realise how lucky I was to have a job I loved. I took care of remote recreation sites and met lots of wonderful people. I lived remote without running water or power. How is this better than the private sector?
You actually worked for the government full time for 8 years and you're complaining about getting a $89 a month retirement. Most people get $0 for 8 years.. Wait most people get $0 for a lifetime of work. Unlike goverment workers we have to pay into our own retirement.
But they do exist in many places. My family member is a 39 year old teacher in an upscale district in NY. She is required for only 10 years to pay into her pension. When she retires after 25 yeras of teaching, she will walk away with 70% of her salary of the average of her last 3 years of teaching. Right now, she is making $100k. When she retires she estiamtes she will be at $130,000. Hence, she will see approximately $90k for life plus health insurance. Even she admits this is crazy but they have a very strong union. Most professionals I know (including drs and lawyers) aren't making much more than she is and there is NO pension at retirement. So, while these cushy benefits do not exist everywhere, they do exist, at the taxpayer's expense.
Thanks Dandy for pointing out that you believe you make less than your peers. What is your current salary and how many hours a day are you contracted to work, and for how many days a year? How many vacation days do you get and can you bank sick days? Factor in your pension which you do not contribute 100%, and is paid by the public for life, and starts for many in their 50's. Maybe now you will admit that you are actually paid better than someone in private industry who has no pension, is non-exempt, no contract, and works many more hours all year long.
No - your "family member" is an anomaly and you know darn fine that is the case!! The upscale district is the key to your statement because the average teacher does not make that much money. In reality, a teacher is not making 100k - try $50-60k and retiring after 25-30 yesrs on $30-40k - that's the reality! And the calculation of retirement benefits depends on the age of a retiree, with older folks (over 55 -60) getting a higher percentage than someone who is 50 years of age. So a person retiring at 50 isn't going to be walking away with globs of money. Stop promoting this cushy benefits scenario- the pay is low and the benefits are all they had to look forward to, and now people like you want to stand on their necks and blame them for the recession. BS!
Also, people need to stop confusing city, state, and county governments with federal government workers. They are NOT all the same and the benefits that federal workers get are very different from local government workers. I'm local government, I've had no pay increase for over a decade, I have a masters degree, took no sick days off last year, do more work than ever because of downsizing, and contribute to my retirement. I will also NOT get social security when I retire - my retirement is in lieu of social security - and I've worked for 22 years in my job. Don't you dare call my benefits cushy, friend. I'm working for them.
The median income for a public school teacher in the US is around 56,000/ year for 9 months of school year, add to that pension, health care and tenure which mean a lot. In districts Like Chicago, New York, LA, etc, the median income is much higher so 100k/yr depending on tenure is not far fetched and by no means an anomaly for a teacher. Chicago's median is 70k plus benefits for example. Most pensions do not depend on the age of the individual, rather they depend on the time of service. In my case, it is a set amount per month based on the number of months worked beyond 5 years of service, in the case of my sister in law it is the number of years worked and a percentage of the average of her last three years worked. In such cases, people tend to try and suck up all the overtime they possibly can the last three years they work so they can pad their retirement.
Look at your city's financial report.
How many local (small town) has a retired Police/Fire Chief that are making >$100 on their pension alone (not even including a outrage health insurance benefits). Similarly for retired teachers/administrator that walked away or simply moved to another distinct/state and received both a pension as well as a NEW job/salary. And many of these has only worked the min number of years to qualify for pension which in many instances are <10-15years. Imagine if you were to be able to take a percentage of each of these and reinvested them into your CURRENT police/fire/teachers/etc. I know here locally, we have a ex police/fire chief that are getting $150/annually plus benefits. A local school adminstrator that left after 5yrs and are drawing both an insurance benefits and pensions while taking on a new job across the state line. Is that really FAIR? to the tax payers? to the current Police/Fire/Teachers? To our kids? Community services/etc?
Double dipping is certainly a problem. This is true especially in places like New Jersey, and California which have had extensive articles written about the cost of double dipping there. And yes I believe that it is unfair to the tax payers of the community, but if the dippers are doing it legally, I cannot blame them for taking advantage of the loop holes that allow them to get away with it! It is up to the people to scrutinize situations like these and use our votes to affect the change we need.
"Doherty made the announcement last Friday that the city's 398 workers would be paid $7.25 an hour because the city was running out of money."
It is about TIME.......... Unionized Police, firemen, and dept. of Public workers AROUND the country are KILLING small and large cities alike with their OUTRAGEOUSLY INFLATED 20, 25, and 30 yr and out, PENSIONS and HEALTH CARE benes...
Up here in Utica NY, the city had to borrow 10 MILLION from the state this year just to keep the city operating.
The fiscal year operating budget was looking at paying OUT 56% of the ENTIRE annual budget.....leaving only 44% to run the city........just to FUND the LIFETIME pensions and health benefits of the RETIRED police, firemen, and other UNIONIZED PUBLIC EMPLOYEES.........
That's FRIGGIN INSANE.........
And I personally am sick and tired of watching the very limited TAX dollars being spent to pay for the CONTINUED ABUSE of POWER of the retired people who actually think to themselves that they participated to such an extent in a cities past 20 years of growth that they are ENTITLED to such outrageously high pensions of anywhere from $4500 to $7500. per month in retirement benefits while the rest of us working slobs who are TAXED 35 to 40% of our salary's even for minimum wage earners to PAY for these UNION THUGS.
Screw this crap about how the police and firemen are such heroes.......the REAL heros are the military personel who sacrifice their lives just so the rest of you can enjoy the freedoms you ALL enjoy today.
This crap has to stop and it has to stop NOW or this country within the next few years will resemble nothing more than a 3rd world toilet.
If the public service employees don't like minimum wage, then let them quit and run crying home to their Mama's about how LIFE is just not fair......well, Boo- Hoo
Give the RIGHTS back to the citizens to PROTECT themselves like we did 50 years ago BEFORE the age of GREEDY lawyers, politicians, law makers, police, and fire.
The police are good for nothing more than writing investigative reports these days AFTER the fact. Well, I do NOT need the police and firemen AFTER the fact......you need them in an emergency and before you all attack me about that would NOT be my tune in an emergency, then you explain to me why I have taken the time to learn how to shoot at a marksman level, have my OWN firefighting apparatus right here on my property, and am a semi-trained Paramedic who will and CAN handle MOST emergency's right here at home.........
SO in this question BEGS to be asked, why would I call the POLICE, FIRE, or PARAS, when I do NOT need their assistance EVER in the first place????
IF the rest of this country would just get a SPINE (learn how to take care of yourselves like our founding fathers did before indoor plumbing and Air conditioning) and get back to what made this country great in the first place, these economic problems we have been enduring for the past 4 years would quickly fade as people would be getting back some of their LOST self worth VS. being told what to do by enacted LAWS of politicians and lawyers who write LAWS just to protect themselves and no one else and then.......... use THUGS with uniforms, badges, and guns to ENFORCE those laws.
The population of this country should be terrified of what is happening to your constitutionally protected civil liberties before they ALL disappear by the abuses of the same people, YOUR TAX DOLLARS are being wasted to PAY for services that you do NOT need.
Nuff said........ because the population will just continue to stick it's head in the sand and hope ALL the financial ILLS of this country will just be fixed by "wishing" it so..........
A fantasy is just that........a fantasy............................. and the population will just continue to live in that world till the police unions have you homeless and begging for spare change on a street corner near you.
I work 40-60 hours a week year round. I dont really feel the need to spell out my entire benefits package but it is in line with a lot of colleagues and associates of mine. Thanks for proving how misinformed you are.
Ummm... no one technically funds their retirement 100% at the point of withdrawal. I contribute 7.5% (as does my local school district) of my salary for my entire career. The pension fund was solvent until our wonderful former governor decided to wrap it up in the stock market in order to give the local districts a break. Guess what happened in 2008?
I like how people who get jobs working for the public never are allowed to make any money and it is mandatory that their benefits package must suck. And you people wonder why unions exist?
Thanks Dandy for secretly keeping the rest of us misinformed except that your Salary is a matter of Public Record. Now which school district is it?
Aah, the old union trump card! Is that why you feel threatened when someone points out public workers are paid better than most in private industry. Just can't handle the truth when others point your preferential treatment at the cost of taxpayers.
Thanks Dida105 for pointing out the truth of public service. The way I look at it in my community, I am renting my home from the school district. And that is because property taxes are so high, yet assessments keep dropping. GO FIGURE!!
LOL! Right- so I now have to justify my salary to clowns on the internet? ROFL! I will tell you right now I make in the $60K range while fellow engineer former classmates of mine are making over a $100K a year working for lockheed martin and other organizations.
Not in a union. You fail.
Blatant lie. When using comparable metrics such as educational and degree requirements, public workers make less.
An honestly - dont want to pay me what I make? Good luck finding someone to do what I do, dealing with uninformed tax payers such as yourself all day long. You people yammer on how people make too much but have extreme difficulty in quantifying what incompetence costs the taxpayer. You should know though actually. LOL!
Hey Dandy, you best be older than 45 my friend, because if you think your going to get what your idiot Union has promised you, then you are living in a fantasy world. You "government workers" are in for the surprise of your life. You were lied to for decades by your Union thugs, and you bought those lies. Get ready for your abyss my friend, because it's coming.
We can debate the merits of public sector jobs and their pay and bebfits --but why do so many here think that themoney paid firemen, polic and teachers and other public service workers is not going back into the local economy? These peole also pay taxes and buy goods and services -- unlike international corporations who are enjoying record low taxes, record high profits and cutting employment here while "outsourcing jobs" -- Believe me -- no one like to pay taxes, inclidong me -- but that is hoe the governmnet gets the money to run the towns, cities, states, and out naion -- these probes are not new --they did not start with the election of Obama --to the contrany -- they are long n coming and were caused --in no small part to two unpaif for wars, and cirporate tax cuts and raing under ands unempoyment. More people working for a decent wage is waht will help this nation turn around these problems -- not less peole working and more corporate profits, lower capital gains taxes and more off shore investing.
Maybe you should learn to read. I said...
Looks applicable to you too.
Shocking Dandy, now we know who wasn't at the top of their class. And does your district employ 123,000 employees like Lockheed? If it does then maybe you should contact your Union and demand a raise or that they bring your salary up to a more comparable level as industry, oh wait, you can't do that because you don't belong to a union. If the difference in salary bothers you so much, why don't you apply for a job at Lockheed?
Really, so your employer, the tax payer, is so uninformed that you have to spend your day straightening them out. Maybe they have a concern about what you are actually doing during the day! Exactly how many tax payers do you deal with on a normal day: thousands, hundreds, tens, less than ten? You must be absolutely exhausted at the end of the day.
people just dont get it - its not a choice for scranton. there is NO MONEY to pay the workers with. You can write checks that arent backed - workers would go to cash them and they would bounce.
Stockton CA and Scranton PA are the tip of the iceburg. Brace yourselves - its about to get really ugly - think about it. First a city falls. Then another city. Then workers stop showing up - which workers? Police, firemen. Crime and breakins go up - then another city falls - then an entire state defaults when taxes from those two cities arent coming in - and so it goes until the whole inverted pyramid comes crashing down.
I love the people talking about entitlements - you can be entitled to a million dollars - but if i dont have a single dollar to pay you with - crap in one hand, wait for your entitlement in the other - see which one fills up first.
Rust...people get that, what they don't accept is that it got to THIS point. For it to get to the point where they need to do this the Mayor and all the other flunkies have been failing for a long long time and done nothing about it. This didn't sneak up on them. The Mayor knew what was coming in and what they had committed to paying out for 'essential services'.
Cops, firemen, sanitation workers ARE owed a reasonable wage. They do jobs that put them in harms way...yes I'm including garbage men in this because in the work place you would call what they deal with every day 'Haz-Mat'.
Our white collar society may look down on these people but they are the ones that maintain the society, that keep it from falling apart. WE (yes I am a white collar office worker also) owe THEM reasonable pay.
I'm not saying those workers are not owed a reasonable wage - they absolutely are. The article is misleading by only listing those professions - the entire city government top to bottom had their wages cut - The problem in Scranton is a microcosym of the United States - Its a simple equation - When your goes intos dont exceed your Goesouttas, your bucket is eventually empty. Once the bucket is empty, it gets scary really quick - If the community doesnt come together and buoy themselves up buildings will burn, the streets will be flooded with trash, and no one will be taking the criminals off the streets.
Its an ugly pill to swallow, but taxes have to be raised and spending cut - Just doing one of these isnt enough to come back from the edge of the cliff they are now falling off
A smart business man once told me that when you start cutting labor costs by cutting people- because you think man power is the issue - you're already done for.
Exactly jcpines
Personally I'd like to know what these union workers make...is it more than reasonable for these tough times? If so, then they need to accept some cuts.
But I don't trust the conservatives with their public union vendettas. Like one of the discussants said above, just have the city commit bankruptcy and then break the unions. Apparently, the mayor tried to raise taxes first but wasn't successful, and I guess we all know what political orientation fights taxes in EVERY instance.
Please tell us how long this mayor has been trying to cut and solve the problem only to be stopped by unions until they have reached this point! Please tell us how long this mayor has been mayor..
Sell property, close the parks and layoff the whole department, close and layoff all non esential people and departments, raise all fees, add fees, borrow it and raise fees and taxes, they have the resources. They are contractually obligated. Pay them by giving them property they can sell, add years to thier pension resourses. Pay me minimum and at some point the city buys me a home that was lost because they didn't pay me according to contract. How many homes can they buy if they have no money??? Better get used to doing for yourselves Scrantonites, you voted for these good folks that paid no heed to what has been coming for many years. Besides this is just a primmer for what will happen when Obama gets a second lifelong term.
jcpines, You are correct they are owed a "REASONABLE" salary... The problem is that the unions do NOT recognize what reasonable is.!!! They think that they are owed these OUTRAGES SALARIES AND BENEFITS that they have been getting for SO VERY LONG that it is engrained in their psychy... They think their union members should NOT have to pay one red cent into their medical benefits or one red cent to their retirement... They REFUSE to negotiate for REASONABLE wages and benefits and sit back and watch as the coffers of their cities go empty... I've seen first hand how unions will not only refuse to negotiate a reasonable wage and benefits package, but also refuse to assist a struggling employer on the brink of bankruptcy to reduce its overall costs if it means that the union employee has to GIVE UP ONE RED CENT or one ioda of what it deems IT'S RIGHTS... Mandatory OVERTIME when there are other ways to cover manpower needs just because the union says so... PLEEEEAAASSSE.. Unions played an important role ONCE UPON A TIME, BUT, they have outlived their usefullness and now only stand for greed and corruption... Holding employers hostage to their will... It's time for more mayors and governors to stand up to public employee unions and STRIP THEM OF ANY POWER WHAT-SO-EVER to bargain for public employee benefits... SALARY ONLY... As far as Scranton, the story indicates the Mayor DID take a cut in pay as well... It also says the Mayor TRIED to raise taxes to cover increasing costs, but was over ruled and NOW everyone wants to point fingers at him for what amounts to legislative failure to see the writting on the wall and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT... Typical politicians, ALL OF THEM... The United States of America is on the decline as a World Power due to our own arrogance and stupidity... It will not be long before we see riots like in Europe as more and more cities and soon states begin to go belly up... Get ready America IT'S A COMMING...
So is $40K a year plus benefits outrageous for a fireman? What about a cop?
You dont have any more of a clue what a reasonable salary is than they do.
Actually Dandy416 I DO know what a reasonable salary would be... How about 50K a year, they pay 40% of their medical the same as most private sector employees and they have a 401K plan where the government pays up to 4% match, same as private sector... The EMPLOYER decides how to cover shifts, NOT the union where it becomes REQUIRED that shifts be covered by OVERTIME... Retirement benefits are determined by a pre-set set of rules, not some CRAZY UNION CONTRACT that says they get 75% of their last 3 or 4 years of service... Why? Because the trick is and has been since as long as I was a little kid and my dad worked for NYC transit, they MAKE OOODLES AND OOODLES of overtime those last few years and pad their retirements... and the management can do nothing to stop it because the union rules forbid it, or they came from the ranks and understand why the workers are doing it and let it slide... Either way, the TAX PAYER FOOTS THE BILL FOR THESE LITTLE UNION TRICKS... I am not advicating minimum wage for Police and Firefighters, but a REASONABLE WAGE and BENEFITS PACKAGE... And I won't even get started on HOW BAD the teacher's unions are... PLEEEEEASE... Bad teachers keeping their jobs because they have tenure???? Really??? In NYC they have these "rooms" where they send teachers they can not fire but WILL NOT ALLOW NEAR THE KIDS... WE PAY FOR THAT INSANITY!!!! That is because of the unions that protect these low life blood suckers... So, dandy, I do have an idea of what REASONABLE IS... Sorry to burst your bubble...
There's no money. Period. Mismanagement by the city administration and the city council have Scranton in the shape it's in. Unions demanding more and more pay, benefits, retirement, etc. are helping to break the bank.
Scranton pays health benefits for 400 current city employees and over 600 retirees. The payroll every 2 weeks is over a million dollars. Cutting everyone to minimum wage brought it down to $330,000.
As far as police and firefighter moving elsewhere, forget it. To work in Scranton as a city employee you must live in Scranton. Most have homes here...with mortgages. Home sales are poor, and the mayor has proposed a 78% tax hike over the next 3 years to help get the city out of its mess. This situation isn't likely to make people want to buy a home in Scranton so those with homes and mortgages are stuck... unless they just walk away. Surrounding towns have volunteer fire departments and police departments that are staffed mostly by part time officers making $9 to $10 (tops) per hour. The few larger cities within driving distance are having their own budget woes and also require city employees to live in their city. No matter how you look at it, it's not pretty.
The city has a lot of non-profits that do not pay city taxes yet hold a lot, and I mean a lot, of real estate that generates revenues. The Catholic church has by far the most. The University of Scranton, for instance, has tons of property. They have purchased and demolished dozens and dozens of tax paying properties in order to expand the university. Now these properties are tax free. Cost per credit at the university: $995.00. Plus all the other fees. Plus the fee to park in their parking lots. Plus the $4500 or so to live in their newly constructed residences for the school year (so much for the private sector being able to rent apartments). Doesn't seem like a non-profit entity to me! There are large church halls that are built for the sole purpose of renting out for dinners and functions. All tax free. Marywood University also in Scranton has much property. They charge $630 a credit. All the empty schools and churches that were closed due to the church's financial crisis and dwindling members lay dormantThe church just hangs on to them, not allowing them back onto the tax rolls where they could generate revunu for the city again. These entities still get police and fire protection, lights, garbage, street services, etc., but are all tax free. The non-profits in Scranton do make payments in lieu of taxes. Tokens. The payments in lieu of taxes for all Scranton non-profits is $300,000 per year. That's it.
Cindy, you hit the nail on the head! There are too many absent landlords that are not paying taxes along with the many owned church owned properties. Everyone keeps saying to raise taxes but what they don't understand is that the people who are paying the taxes are already taxed to death making up for those who pay nothing. I am glad I don't live in the city but in the outlying area.
I live in Hanover, MI. My village is seeing poverty more since we moved in in 2002. I see more people on their asses and still on their asses drinking beer, smoking cigarettes, and dope. Thefts have gone up from juveniles breaking into sheds etc. Stealing tools and equipment to buy beer and smokes. The list goes on and on. I am tired of looking at the laziness and stupidity around here. Liberalism has roared its ugly head here bigtime and personal responsibility has gone down the toilet. God help the U.S.A.
I have worked for several companies so far in my career and I find the insurance I have had is on par with what I make working for a public school district. So... its not my fault you have lousy insurance.
The pension was one of the reasons I left my private sector power plant engineering job and took a $30K/yr pay cut to come and work for the public. Im not complaining (since it was my choice to leave) but that is the reasoning.
The idea that any public worker can never have any benefits package better than the worst private sector packages is absurd.
As a citizen of New Orleans, who used to pay its police for an average of $16,000 a year, I can tell the citizens of Scranton what they can expect. Their cops will be 100 more likely to accept bribes- and after the first bribe the criminal will own that cop. While I may sympathize with a town that in financial dire straights- this is just plain dumb. When it comes to police, teachers and firemen- Scranton will get what it pays for.
What the hell do you expect ! We've had years of tax cuts and 10 years of more than just a couple of wars !!This @!$%# costs money add to that the great near depression and still trying to recover everyone screams when someone (who actualy has a few brains) wants to raise taxes they all start crying !! WTF do you expect nothing comming in and way too much going out and we're ALL to blame everyone wants everything without having to work for it !! So lets just all sit here and blame each other and our candidates and get no where again ...Ship of fools !
This guy attended the Scott Walker school of negotiating with unions. Talk to these (union) people and they will compromise with you. Be honest. Show them the books instead of acting like a dictator.
Wow! You must be kidding right? In NYC, there is no compromising with the unions. It's their way or the highway and they run this city. You'd better cave to their demands or they will strike during the height of the holiday season (MTA) or the height of a heatwave (ConED).
Umm no they don't. Tell that to all the GM Janesville workers who went on strike a year before GM closed the doors. All the unions want is more more more. Who cares where the company is at financially. Unions have a place, but more than usual, they will destroy a company, and that includes a city or state.
As a past Union Rep and a state employee I backed Walker because I know how the Union in WI. worked. It protected employees that should not have been in positions they were unqualified to do. This cost tax payers who were not getting their monies worth. You may complain about the rich all you want but if you look inside yourself, honestly, you will find the mistakes you made in your life that kept you from being wealthy. Did you apply yourself in school? Did you do everything you could to get ahead or did you think you could just float through life and still get ahead? You also must remember that voters put in office the people that put us in this mess. The only ones at fault are the voters that elected those that gave them what they wanted. Now the bill has to be paid. Tax the rich enough to make them move. They will because they can. When all the rich leave we can have a nation of paupers. Maybe that is the goal of the left. We can all be equally POOR.
When companies close the doors, that's the only time a union wants to negotiate.
I backed Walker as well. It was the right thing to do.
I believe the Scott Walker method is talk TO the back of their head as you screw them, not discuss it like adults and come to a mutual compromise.
This article covers the crux of our economic enigma, or "catch-22" , whereby it is clear we must step back from the position that we have enjoyed since World War Two, but instead of setting up standards of fairness in this step down, we have rather opted for an old human way of dealing with redistribution of wealth, that of oppression and inequality, and that course will lead our society inexoribly back into the dark ages of serfdom and Lords, hatred and bloodshed.
The Republicans accuse the Democrats of class warfare, but here we have a blatant example of class warfare of the Republicans against the people of their own state. Their arrogance and sense of entitlement knows no bounds. If you want a Republican Party in charge, you might want to think about what you wish for.
All Democrats in Scranton! Try again!
Stop the politicking lies. The Mayor has stated he would reimburse all the back pay when they city got funding in loans/grants and such.
Yes the mayor is a giant bucket of fail and needs to be booted for letting it get to this point but this is in no way an example of class warfare or endemic of the Republican party.
ps...vote out every incumbent for the next 6 years and maybe we can force some real change.
scranton is all democrats - Its also where Biden is from - he has a few cronies still floating around up there. Just Like Obama's Chicago has become the gang murder capitol of america under Rahm, Scranton is sinking under the big blue anchor of entitlements -
JC, you have a good point. Many of the issues we're experiencing at the local, state, and national levels are due to entrenched politicians who think nothing of spending our money on feel good projects but fail to tackle the tough issues.
This is not a republican or democratic issue, it's an idiot, bad management issue. If politicians would stop thinking they have a botomless money pit possibly they could manage a successful budget
LOL And you would believe him if it were your paycheck?
By using Google, you would have learned that Chris Doherty is a Democrat, not a Republican.
Really.. You seem to have no clue about the facts of this case... Maybe you should do some research before posting again.
There is a bigger picture here in Pennsylvania. Our elected representatives in Harrisburg feel the best way to balance our budget is to cut education funding and funding to cities. Tuition and fees continue to rise in state schools, and our cities are going down the drain. Harrisburg itself is also broke. While there is a need to curb spending, our governor willfully ignores a new revenue source that every other state has taken advantage off - if they have it. That source is the shale gas industry. Our friends in Harrisburg have offered the drilling industry a free pass in Pennsylvania, with no tax placed on these folks. Better yet, they have passed a bill that largely prevents local municipalities from deriving income from the shale gas industry as well. So, as local schools, local governments and our state colleges and universities slowly go broke, as our roads are devastated by the heavy traffic of drilling rigs and the like, the shale gas drilling industry in Pennsylvania is growing extremely rich. It's supposed to "trickle down", but we know how that works.
William, for you and others that jump to conclusions and spread misinformation without having any facts, the governor is a DEMOCRAT and he DID cut his own pay down to minimum wage.
The mayor is a Democrat, our governor is Republican.
Well that explains a lot.
Native NW PA resident here and everything here is true.
Corbett will be a 1 term governor. Even his own party doesnt like him.
Dandy416, tell your bull to the workers that work on those rigs that support restaurants, shops and other stores that they live around. Universities / colleges going broke? You mean the ones where tuition has outpaced inflation by 8 to 1 over the last 30 years, you mean those guys? Yeah, the ones where tenured Professors rarely teach, and just write to get published, and only teach 4 hours a week? You mean the "academics" who are fleecing this generation? We howl and moan about "the big banks", we scream at "big oil" for price gouging, and we occupy "Wallstreet" but never say a word as the higher education system in this country rapes the youth of our country. Your sir are completely out of touch. And just for your knowledge my sister is a Professor at a huge northeastern University and she says what "higher education" has become, is the biggest ripoff of the haves versus the have nots (today's youth) that exists in this country. And they just sit there and take it, and the media says nothing either as they get fleeced. Higher education is a ripoff but you have your head buried. We spend more per child on education than any western country other than Austria, and yet look at the results, they are pathetic.
Im sorry our education system has failed you so badly. Maybe if you spent more time paying attention you wouldnt posts walls of text of complete yammering.
JCB:
You seem to have memorized the Pennsylvania Republican Manifesto well. Our state schools are a bargain, with a good education to be received by the student that takes their education seriously. My daughter attends one, is an honor student and we are pleased with the education she is receiving. She lives at home, commutes, and the cost of her tuition is a bargain. Your crap about the professors is just that, crap. While the governor and his people spew this garbage, there is no truth to it. Sadly, they are pitting the citizens of the state, especially the uninformed (like you), against the educators of our children. I have a child in college, one in middle school and one in elementary school, and am thrilled at the education each is receiving. If you spend some time in the schools, you would see that out teachers are worth every penny they make, especially in this era of parents that will not parent their children.
You are right, the gas workers do spend there money for food, lodging and entertainment. And that will last how long? The wells will be drilled, pipe lines laid, compressor stations erected, and then what. The boom is done. No more workers spending money. Yet there will be damage to the roads, damage to the environment (look at all the old leaking oil wells in Pennsylvania - it's tax dollars taking care of them, not the folks that put them there), polluted drinking water and so on. So how will the cities, townships and other small municipalities pay for this? Not with the tax revenue they receive in return to the use of their infrastructure. There is none.
As far as your sister, if she is a professor and that is the opinion she has of higher education, she is part of the problem and not part of the solution. She should be ashamed. There is no doubt that higher education has become too expensive in many areas - primarily the private schools that I have no interest in for my children, as there is no need to take on this expense. As far as the education received in this country and it's quality (or lack thereof), we can take a collective look in the mirror. When we begin to parent our children again, from making sure they wear appropriate clothing to school, seeing they eat adequately to nourish themselves, follow up on parent-teacher meetings, make sure the kids do their homework, get adequate sleep and all the rest of the things that good parents should do, our results from the education process will improve.
By the way, I am not an educator and no one in my family is. I am self employed, we live modestly so my wife can stay home with the children (thank goodness she is willing to suspend her career while she takes on this most important task), and try to be the best parent I can be. I've grown so tired of folks that are so willing to complain and blame, with no real knowledge of the topic of their complaints. Just for today, try using the brain that is in you head for thinking, and quit being an echo for the party line of bull. You might be surprised at the world around you.
John in NW Penn, your quote "There is no doubt that higher education has become too expensive in many areas - primarily the private schools that I have no interest in for my children, as there is no need to take on this expense. As far as the education received in this country and it's quality (or lack thereof), we can take a collective look in the mirror. When we begin to parent our children again, from making sure they wear appropriate clothing to school, seeing they eat adequately to nourish themselves, follow up on parent-teacher meetings, make sure the kids do their homework, get adequate sleep and all the rest of the things that good parents should do, our results from the education process will improve"
John, I am not a republican, and I agree with your entire paragraph above. My sister worked in the private sector for 30 years, teaching which she started in 2010 was her "give back" for a life well lived, nothing more. She is disgusted with the University system, both private but especially public, which her University is. I went to UNC Chapel Hill in the mid 70's, my cost per year while there was less than $2000 a year, at FSU less than $1500 a year, now they exceed $28,000 a year in state, that is total insanity. They are fleecing this generation, period. I'm quite sorry you don't feel that today's youth is being robbed, because they are. Parenting? what is that John? Parents want be "friends" with their kids, to hell with parenting. According to my sister todays junior in college would be a 12th grader in the 70's, fact, not fiction. Yes, they are tech savvy, but can't put together cohesive theories or proper management philosophies, which is what she teaches, they just don't have the skill sets necessary. We are right on the abyss in this country. I wish your kids a wonderful life, glad to be older, and in a good place, hope you find the same.
my computer is messed up, hope you get this, best to you.
"Just for today, try using the brain that is in you head for thinking, and quit being an echo for the party line of bull. You might be surprised at the world around you"
John, oh John, having been around this world, I think I can see the world as it is. America is a great country, but far from what I imagined in my teens and 20's. I so wish we had better leadership, and more personal responsibility. I supported Hillary John, I live right near her old law school. I voted for Obama, though I think he's over his head, but that's just my take on him. I knew he wasn't ready for primetime, but the other choice was no choice at all. Not all is as it seems. My one tip for you is to become a "traveler". I have been my whole life, and it has given me a perspective that most can not understand. Being in my mid 50's and being retired for many years, I was very blessed by real estate, I look at each situation differently. I feel for the people of Scranton, but lasting decisions by elected leaders have consequences. I hope that your state finds it's way, because it doesn't seem the numbers are working to good. best to you, and thanks for raising great and self reliant children. Now get to Barcelona soon, then Florence, then Vienna, then Berlin, then Prague and keep going, it will blow your mind!! Life's a banquet John, please feel free to take your share. You deserve to see it all, and don't take no for an answer!
JCB-1236504, you hit the nail on the head when it comes to the fleecing of students.
College is a big fat lie. It's a holding tank. A factory which creates debt slaves to the great American
DreamLie. My student loan debt is OBSCENE and there are NO JOBS in my field. My loans continue to rack up interest, and guess what, people? Unlike a person whose business tanks, or a homeowner who can't pay the mortgage, or the City of Scranton, or any other debtor in over their head, bankruptcy will not discharge a student loan. Where's the equity in that? Why do we have to "own up" when everyone else gets to bail on their responsibility? You realize college doesn't still cost what it cost in the 50s and 60s, don't you Boomers?Dandy416, you haven't a clue.
John in NW PA, it's really great that your child has the luxury of mom and dad keeping a roof over her head, food in her stomach, and clothes on her back, while she attends school (most likely subsidized by you). We don't all have that luxury. There is tuition. And then there is something called the "Cost of Attendance" for the rest of us.
Wacko twisted liberal full of BS, delusional to say, the job creators are the middle class consumers. First & foremost, you need a job to have an income to spend, it is not the other way round. American workers are big spenders, spend monies they do not have, most live on plastic money with high interest, then turn around blaming banks & the wealthy 1%, for being irresponsible, to end up without money to pay debt due to job lost. Blame everybody else is the norm acceptable behavior recourse, instead of self blame for believing this line......I am the job creator, middle class, spending more than what I earned with back up credits from the banks is the American way to prosperity, so I can buy things I want to keep up with the Jones's, instead of what I need for life necessities. How many hard working Americans can say, they have at least 3 to 6 months monthly gross income equivalent as saving for the rainy days, statistics shows inferior numbers. Most believe & rely on the government money or taxpayers money to save them from the poor house. This is all true, one of them is the Obama bailout of the underwater homeowners on foreclosures, to date, still underwater, no progress to be proud of in improving the economy. Hard working American earners, compared to countries like China, Japan, Germany etc, their workers save 30 to 40 % of their income for self sufficiency in case the economy gets tough. America's bad economy produced suckers like parasites of the society, once trapped in, cannot or do not want to get out, feeling comfort & less stress without responsibility of being competitive in a job setting. Society must learn to save the money they earned with their blood, sweats & tears. Stop squandering your hard earned money, spend you money wisely......this line must be the message all of us need to demand politicians in all levels of government should & must follow. I am sick & tired of hearing spending will create prosperity, politicians followed this nonsense line, so where are we today............??????
Looks like no one read the Huffington Post story cs1701a above posted the link on:
"A Pennsylvania mayor has an extreme plan to address his city's budget shortfalls: pay every public employee, including himself, minimum wage."
It's a lot easier to jump to conclusions than look for the facts.
That's because liberals think that everyone who succeeds in life is greedy. Even if you show them the facts in black and white, they will still not believe you. They (Liberals) could be upside-down and see the world as right-side up. They are stupid. Now, if they believe the mayor is making minimum wage like the rest, then they will think it's fair. This is called Socialism. Socialism tells us that everyone is equal no matter what your qualification are. You are a Doctor, you should be making the same as a garbage man. This is how these people think and "feel". This is what is happening to our great nation. If Obama gets 4 more years, we will ALL be equally poor. That is their goal. They don't think it's fair for one to make more than another. God Bless this Mayor for downgrading everyone including himself to minimum wage, instead of firing people, which he could have done instead. At least everyone is working, as of now.
Bringit-871936, I don't think anyone believes a doctor should earn the same as a garbageman (who, if you really examine the nature of Big Pharma, provides a greater service then the doctor anyhow... but that's another discussion... sort of). What needs to happen is a society where everyone is truly free to pursue a dream. Not everyone has the opportunity of choosing "doctor" for their the career. And it's not about grades, or "working hard," or any of this other nonsense. It's about opportunity. Period.
You have to be smart to study medicine period. Really opportunity? well this is extended to foreign graduates of medicine to train in the USA. BTW, students with god given intelligence can pursue higher education & beyond with scholarships waiting to be grabbed by anybody, with intelligence to maintain an excellent grades required of the scholarship. Is that not an opportunity to those college material students, who cannot afford to go to college? America is the only country in the globe where opportunity is alive & well
they should just put that $133,000 on black in any one of Pennsylvania's new casinos. Maybe they can double or even triple up! They can afford to use our taxes for casinos, but will not have enough money to pay the police officers and other public workers.
"The worker is worthy of his hire"!
The article states that everyone including the Mayor and I believe the council is being paid minimum wage.
He didn't just cut the fire and police, it was across the board.
Lastly i believe an article I read on this yesterday said all were Democrats including the majority if not all the council.
The democrats are running this country into the ground.
I do not think policemen and firefighters should have to work for minimum wage but how can they get paid when their employers, the taxpayers, are making miniumum wage or unemployed?
My property taxes have gone up double digits the last three years. My healthcare insurance has gone up double digits the last three years. My salary has not changed. Obviously at some point everything will collapse.
Exactly Tom. Everything needs to collapse, so the top who want a big return for nothing, get left holding the loss.
Those guys just don't care (politician and unions). They knew that the contracts that they signed could not last for ever. Now comes the extortion and threats. Too bad that the city can't pay for the gasoline to run the trucks or cars either. Now is the time they both sat down and come up with something that is workable. I'm sure that they city can arrange to float a bond at maybe 50% interest. Welcome to the real world.
And yet the governments all over think they can still borrow their way out of debt. Sick to think to think that the tax payer has to bail out the banks and be thank full that's all they want. If you are rich enough you pay your bills if and when you feel like it, but expect to collect the money owed them on time or else and with interest added on by the minuet. Have you ever notice how when you have something for sale and a rich person wants it, how they can make it sound so worthless, but the minuet they jew you down to the lowest price possible and they buy it, it suddenly becomes a very valuable item for the next buyer.
Deflationary crash continues. With a deflating money supply, bubble level salaries and prices cannot be sustained. Google for "DEFLATIONARY CRASH KONDRATIEFF WAVE" to understand the deflationary forces in the economy. The debt load of the economy is too much. It cannot carry the burden of servicing excessive debt. Nothing has been fixed. Debt was the problem to begin with and we have more of it now.
Pay cuts should start from the top down. I am baffled that a town that size which host 5 colleges and in such a central location to 3 major cities cant figure a way to promote itself in a way to generate enough revenue so as to pay for its basic community services.
Paying people who risk their lives to protect your community minimum wage is an embarassment and suggest that all the government officials there need to be replaced. That city needs and deserves some creative thinkers who can re-invent the area and bring commerce to it.
Boy you are a rocket scientist...."Creative thinkers who can re-invent.."
THEY HAVE NO MONEY, DUMMY
Did the Mayor and top officials take the same cut? If everyone gives up perks and takes cuts, it works....(like the rich paying their share of taxes); it would ease the load and even it.
what you fail to realize is that unions and liberalism have bankrupted the city and there is no money. If there is no money, you cant print it like obama can..... This is what is wrong with the entire country.... Want to get out of debt, then stop welfare and entitlement programs for people that dont work.... Its pretty sad when the government had more people added to the social security disability roles than jobs created last month.... This means hunny, that the US is a cradle to grave nanny state, and we just dont have the money for that and will be like Greece shortly..... Where is the incentive to work, if the govt is gonna hand out free money to the non workers at the expense of the workers?
Yes they all took cuts in pay! For the love of god read the article. Local taxes are based on property for the most part. Everyone is paying their fair share.
So then you look at where the money is going if you can only afford to pay someone minimum wages in positions like that... Something stinks here
Scranton has had financial problems since 2007 (and probably before). They could have taken action and made plans to avoid coming to this point.
#Timelessfun, that canned its liberals and unions fault plays well with those who choose to ignore that executives make 10-100 times what their average employee makes. You neo-cons never seem to question the logic of that or the impact that has on a business or government to pay its debts. "Cut workers pay so executives can keep those massive bonuses." It astounds me that that still makes sense to anyone.
#Jimmy, you are just the smartest guy in the room. Thanks for sharing you brilliance with us (sarcasm)
well mabutoo, instead of complaining about executives pay, why dont you get off your but and be an executive instead of wanting more pay for being a laborer without any incentive to make himself better? Too bad you people demand the same pay for the bottom of the ladder as the people at the top. Get an education, and then get a job.